Banette-balance

[Gold]

Here I go again, this time with Banette



The first change I made was buffed his move pool to make him more versatile. These moves are used by his ghost brothers Gengar and Dusknoir so it is not a big stretch to allow Banette them also. The moves are:

brick break
fire punch
ice punch
thunder punch
focus punch
shadow punch

Banette previously was lacking physical attacks and different type attacks. Adding these moves to his move pool should help him out a lot.

I also edited his stats a bit also.

Hp: 64
Atk: 115
Def: 65
Sp.A:83
Sp.D: 63
Spe: 100

His original base stats strongly emphasized the Atk stat as priority. With his defenses pretty low it looked like he would make a good sweeper. The speed was heavily boasted from the pathetic 65 to a very decent 100. This allows him to outrun a lot of pokemon, he is still bested in speed by some pokemon but this enormous boast gives Banette the ability to be an effective sweeper.

The rest of his stats were left alone, without heavy boasting to his defences and HP he will still be 1 or 2 HKO by most Crunch users or pursuit users. Being a sweeper I didn't see a point to buff those stats.

I left the Atk the same as it was before. Using brick break, with a helpful nature and 252ev he is able to 2HKO a Careful, 168/120 HP, Def Snorlax.

I was trying to make him strong without over powering. Like always I am looking for pointer, I still have a long way to go.

P.s Is this where I should be posting these, if not where should I post them?

[LeoReborn]

Did you use a Damage calc?

The best way to back it up is with Data

[Gold]

I did use the damage calculator. What data would u like to see I can add that in.

[Raikt]

Go to http://www.smogon.com

Then, go to Banette's page and look at it's most commonly used attacks. Follow it up by looking at some of it's better, but not quite as good attacks. (It only has one or two effective movesets, last I recall.) Use these in your calculations against Pokemon that give Banette an issue within it's tier. Banette has issues with Taunt leads and Status'ers, iirc.

Use Damage Calculations against some of it's most common counters. Ambipom is a very common Taunt Lead.

Honestly, though, Banette will probably see most of its changes via Talent Tree. Stat wise, it's not amazing, but its not bad. It just lacks a very solid movepool to make use of it's other skills.

[boyben10]

I agree, either make Banette Bulkier with more HP, Def, and Spd or give it at least 96 speed, allowing it to outspeed anything with 95 or less speed, and also give it some good physical attacks. It has no good physical attacks whatsoever, and it desperately needs some.

[Gold]

I agree, either make Banette Bulkier with more HP, Def, and Spd or give it at least 96 speed, allowing it to outspeed anything with 95 or less speed, and also give it some good physical attacks. It has no good physical attacks whatsoever, and it desperately needs some.

Bump the speed more is reasonable but I gave Banette a ton of moves all of which are physical.

[LeoReborn]

I was saying(Or at least trying to):

Show us Damage of 5 very Different Pokes Before and After.
That means from both sides.

Then post it here so we can see results.

[Raikt]

By Damage Calculations, just to clear the issue up, I meant this:

[]...here are some calculations against many defensive Pokémon Pokemon after a single Swords Dance. These calculations assume an Adamant nature.

Close Combat vs. 252/252+ Skarmory 84.4% - 99.7%
Close Combat vs. 252/0+ Skarmory 101.5% - 119.5%
Close Combat vs. 252/252+ Bronzong: 95.2% - 100%
Close Combat vs. 252/176+ Hippowdon: 80.7% - 95%
Crunch vs. 252/220+ Celebi: 81.2% - 95.5%
Crunch vs. 252/252+ Rotom-A: 100% - 117.8%
ExtremeSpeed vs. 0/0 Starmie: 97.3% - 114.6%
ExtremeSpeed vs 0/0 Zapdos: 79.1% - 93.1%
Bullet Punch vs. 0/0 Gengar: 95.8% - 113%
Bullet Punch vs. 0/0 Tyranitar: 89.7% - 105.6%
Stone Edge (+1) vs. 156/96 Gyarados: 121.6% - 143.2%
Stone Edge vs. 248/228+ Zapdos: 118% - 138.9%

These are taken straight from the Lucario Analysis page. They demostrate the effectiveness of Swords Dance (Adamant [That's the most damage you are going to get, so it assumes max for best results.]) Lucario against some of the most common 'pokes in the OU metagame.

Since Banette is NU, you could show some damage calculations against the most common threats of NU. (Though, the tier is somewhat underplayed) or even against some UU and OU threats to lend some weight to your decisions. And, while I do agree that Banette should learn the Elemental Punches, based off of the fact that it has hands alone, you need to put some thought into the moves you give it. Personally, I'm absolutely against removing moves for any reason. However, adding is acceptable but needs to be planned out. Much like the move tutors in the game, or via some other aspect I've yet to go into, we can't just give these moves without thinking about their implementation and cause to other areas.

[Gold]

Ok everyone I am going to ask a fair amount of questions. If you are able to answer some or all of them it would be very appreciated.

-How much of an increase can be given to a Pokemon?
-What would be considered making the Pokemon TOO powerful?
-When giving Pokemon moves to assist it, what should be allowed or not aloud?(I have been adding moves other Pokemon of the same type have, that fit the Pokemon.)
-What archetype of pokemon should I test against: sweepers, walls, tanks...etc?
-When testing against the selected tester pokemon what sets (Evs and natures) should I test against?
-Should I test using moves that the pokemon learns already or if I have given it moves that would be helpful against the test pokemon should I use those moves?

Im pretty sure those are the majority of the questions I was really curious about. So ya, if possible try and answer some of these. Thanks.

[LeoReborn]

Excellent Questions, I know the answer to all of them.
Tell them what the answers are, Raikt!....

[Gold]

Great plan unbreakable. Raikt help us!

[Raikt]

Ok everyone I am going to ask a fair amount of questions. If you are able to answer some or all of them it would be very appreciated.

-How much of an increase can be given to a Pokemon?

It depends entirely on the Pokemon. If I had to give a general guideline, "OU should become weaker OU, UU should aim to become OU, and NU, plus the rest, should aim to be their own tier." This way we would effectively cut it down to "Most Pokemon go here" and "There are going to be some decent or average ones in the bunch".

-What would be considered making the Pokemon TOO powerful?

If every person is carrying that specific Pokemon on their team, or every single team has a counter for that Pokemon, then a Pokemon is too powerful. Similarly, you can look at why Garchomp and Salamence were moved to Ubers and this would be a prime example of it.

-When giving Pokemon moves to assist it, what should be allowed or not aloud?(I have been adding moves other Pokemon of the same type have, that fit the Pokemon.)

The first thing you should look at is if a Pokemon actually needs the move. Practicality can be put on the back seat if a Pokemon can hugely benefit from a move that doesn't necessarily fit. (Giving Blastoise Reflect.) Then, you can add moves based off of practicality. Such as giving the elemental punches to a Pokemon with fists that doesn't naturally learn them.

-What archetype of pokemon should I test against: sweepers, walls, tanks...etc?

Whatever stops the Pokemon. Whether it be a sweeper, a tank, a wall, or just a Pokemon that was in the right place at the right time. (Joke.) But, the top three damage calculations I should see are: The number one "counter". Something that hard counters it nearly every time. Next is the "soft counter". A 'mon that can't counter it all the time, but can if the conditions are right. The third should be for a Pokemon that uses a set specifically to stop the opponents Pokemon. (Cloyster's Anti-Garchomp set back in the day.)

-When testing against the selected tester pokemon what sets (Evs and natures) should I test against?

Always test Max/Max. If you are testing a damaging move against a wall, then you should be using the Pokemon's absolute max attacking score against the foe's absolute max defensive score. However, it should be noted that sometimes this is not always the case. (Specially Defensive Skarmory.) So, it would be acceptable, and desired, if you did a second calculation against, say, 252 HP / 0 DEF EV's. Does that make sense?

-Should I test using moves that the pokemon learns already or if I have given it moves that would be helpful against the test pokemon should I use those moves?

You only need to test for a move you have given it if you have a good reason to give it that move. Giving it the elemental punches out of "flavor", since it has 'hands' so to speak, isn't necessary. They won't overpower it or break it. However, if you gave it, say, Shadow Punch, I would expect you to run calculations to prove that it will either help / not break the Pokemon in question.

[Level5Pidgey]

I'd argue that every non-gimmick Pokemon should be somewhat proficient at a certain role enough that they can be used competently at a competitive UU level.

Thankfully, most Pokemon do have the basic moves and stats to be viable, but may need a couple of tweaks to separate them from the pack, remove their dependencies on a specific team layout, remove a crippling weakness or help them to fulfill their role better.

So, while we may not give Butterfree Dragonite's stats, we will make it at least viable in general play - so people can use any Pokemon with skill and planning to win.

As said though, gimmick Pokemon (like Unown, Ditto, Wobuffet) will likely still be somewhat gimmicky and useless, unless we completely revamp them.
We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

[boyben10]

Butterfly is good enough because it has many accurate status moves because of it's ability, it has a near perfect accuracy sleep inducing move, though it could use some more speed.

EDIT: Level5Pidgey, sorry, accidentally edited this post instead of quoting.

[Level5Pidgey]

Butterfly is good enough because it has many accurate status moves because of it's ability, it has a near perfect accuracy sleep inducing move, though it could use some more speed.

It needs more Speed, yes, but it could also use a function to perform while Sleep clause is in effect too, etc.

Currently having an opponent's Pokemon slept by a Butterfree is almost like having a man down yourself as you can't really use it for anything else, or bring it in on anything.