Pokemon Universe MMORPG

Pokémon Universe => Ideas & Suggestions => Game Features => Topic started by: neokills on July 02, 2010, 09:16:04 PM

Title: losing to a gym leader
Post by: neokills on July 02, 2010, 09:16:04 PM
I was thinking and I did search for this but was unable to find a topic.

I think if you lose to a gym leader, you shouldnt be able to just g to the pokemon center and then go right back to the gym.

There should be alike a time limit that you have to wait before you can challenge him/her again. like if you lose to gym A, you wont be able to challenge that gym leader for like 24 hours or until your trainer level, level's up. Something like that any way

this would actually make people think before they challenge a gym, they would have to make sure that they are fully prepared to challenge the gym leader.

anybody agree with me on this?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Amphi on July 02, 2010, 11:52:32 PM
i actually disagree i dont think there should be a time limit at all gym leaders are a very good way of leveling your teams up,
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 03, 2010, 12:42:31 AM
i actually disagree i dont think there should be a time limit at all gym leaders are a very good way of leveling your teams up,

Battling Gym leaders are only a good way of leveling up your team if you win....
 
Why allow a player to continue to lose over and over again? I do think that there should be some kind of wait period (which should be random imo) but if a trainer has an ultimate desire to lose an unwinnable battle, can't really stop them.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: neokills on July 03, 2010, 01:07:10 AM
by having a wait period if you lose, it would make the game even more challenging, because you dont know the type of pokemon the gym leader will have and you dont know how strong they will be, so if you go into a gym battle and you can not win, you should not be able to jsut run back in and challenge him again. there should be a consequence for losing a battle because you were unprepared.

So if there is not a wait period( which I think there should be), then there should be some other consequence for if/when you lose.

-lose 25% or 50% of the current amount of money you have
-lose a trainer level
-your pokemon lose trust/friendship/loyalty level

This will make players prepare themselves for a battle, because then no one will want to white out because of the consequence.

This will make the game more challenging and unique.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Mr Pokemon on July 03, 2010, 01:10:56 AM
Keep in mind that somebody will - even if it is not allowed - post the Pokemon that each gym leader has, and what levels they are. People will read this, and know exactly how to prepare for their gym battles. However, they will feel guilty for a long time. Hahaha!
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: neokills on July 03, 2010, 02:40:36 AM
yeah but if all the gym battles were simple and easy like you guys want it then it wouldn't be as much fun, because anybody at all could easily get all the badges with no effort
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: neokills on July 03, 2010, 02:46:52 AM
the gyms should be very hard an challenging so that not everyone can just win, therefore when u win a gym badge it actually feels like an accomplishment.

Think about the normal pokemon games, every single person who plays it wins the game, and they can all easily get every pokemon in the game. they are no challenge at all.

You shouldn't want the game to be easy just you can simply beat it and forget it. this game should be very hard so that when you beat a gym leader or actually accomplish something then you have a higher sense of satisfaction for your hard work.

Instead of being one of those whiny people who just want the game to be easy as possible and get everything your way just so you could do it, you should want the game to be more challenging so that way the weak/lame trainers cant do what you did and your badge actually means something
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Raikt on July 03, 2010, 08:39:24 AM
Phew. Topics move fast around here. (Or maybe I'm just slow...)

I was actually just thinking about this the other day after reading the newest posts in the other Gym Leader thread. It's like you guys here always know what is on my mind. I consider that a good thing. Anyway, to answer your question, I'm for a wait period in which a player cannot challenge a Gym Leader again. My thought was around ~2 hours. This gives them ample time to go train, learn, try out some new combinations, but without being overly annoying. (If you ask me.)

It also stops one, crucial thing; power leveling. There would be, unless we did something odd like giving  you no experience, no way to stop someone from power leveling their Pokemon by just losing over and over again while still accumulating experience. Trust me. People would do this; in fact, I can guarantee it would happen unless we impose some form of limit to Gym Battles.

The battles are already going to be hard, to stop people from breezing through them. I'll make sure of that myself. (Talent trees, IV's, and movesets if you will.) So, I can pretty much assue you that, unless you know what you are doing, the Gym Leaders aren't going to be anything like in the handheld games. I think people will enjoy it more this way. C/D that with me, but would you really want an MMO you can beat in like a week?

Another thing I think is that, once you beat a Gym Leader, there will be a wait period before you can challenge the next one. One to two days, at the most. Again, some people might see this as a drag, but with seventeen gyms, this will add a lot of playability while giving you incentive to explore and try other things out.

I think I started to ramble, lol, but I hope that answers your question. That's what I intend with PU, and I'll bring it up when we come to it.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Amphi on July 04, 2010, 12:06:47 AM
i actually disagree i dont think there should be a time limit at all gym leaders are a very good way of leveling your teams up,

Battling Gym leaders are only a good way of leveling up your team if you win....
 
Why allow a player to continue to lose over and over again? I do think that there should be some kind of wait period (which should be random imo) but if a trainer has an ultimate desire to lose an unwinnable battle, can't really stop them.

you see you're wrong about this you don't have to win to continue to level you team up while fighting a gym leader, your pokemon still gain exp even if you lose the whole battle so yeah you do gain exp for even losing to a leader
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: neokills on July 04, 2010, 07:49:58 PM
Phew. Topics move fast around here. (Or maybe I'm just slow...)

I was actually just thinking about this the other day after reading the newest posts in the other Gym Leader thread. It's like you guys here always know what is on my mind. I consider that a good thing. Anyway, to answer your question, I'm for a wait period in which a player cannot challenge a Gym Leader again. My thought was around ~2 hours. This gives them ample time to go train, learn, try out some new combinations, but without being overly annoying. (If you ask me.)

It also stops one, crucial thing; power leveling. There would be, unless we did something odd like giving  you no experience, no way to stop someone from power leveling their Pokemon by just losing over and over again while still accumulating experience. Trust me. People would do this; in fact, I can guarantee it would happen unless we impose some form of limit to Gym Battles.

The battles are already going to be hard, to stop people from breezing through them. I'll make sure of that myself. (Talent trees, IV's, and movesets if you will.) So, I can pretty much assue you that, unless you know what you are doing, the Gym Leaders aren't going to be anything like in the handheld games. I think people will enjoy it more this way. C/D that with me, but would you really want an MMO you can beat in like a week?

Another thing I think is that, once you beat a Gym Leader, there will be a wait period before you can challenge the next one. One to two days, at the most. Again, some people might see this as a drag, but with seventeen gyms, this will add a lot of playability while giving you incentive to explore and try other things out.

I think I started to ramble, lol, but I hope that answers your question. That's what I intend with PU, and I'll bring it up when we come to it.

I like all this, and I'm glad there will be a wait in between gyms also, now no one will be able to just fly through all the gyms, they will actually have to play and experience all the other features of the game.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Amphi on July 04, 2010, 09:43:27 PM
Phew. Topics move fast around here. (Or maybe I'm just slow...)

I was actually just thinking about this the other day after reading the newest posts in the other Gym Leader thread. It's like you guys here always know what is on my mind. I consider that a good thing. Anyway, to answer your question, I'm for a wait period in which a player cannot challenge a Gym Leader again. My thought was around ~2 hours. This gives them ample time to go train, learn, try out some new combinations, but without being overly annoying. (If you ask me.)

It also stops one, crucial thing; power leveling. There would be, unless we did something odd like giving  you no experience, no way to stop someone from power leveling their Pokemon by just losing over and over again while still accumulating experience. Trust me. People would do this; in fact, I can guarantee it would happen unless we impose some form of limit to Gym Battles.

The battles are already going to be hard, to stop people from breezing through them. I'll make sure of that myself. (Talent trees, IV's, and movesets if you will.) So, I can pretty much assue you that, unless you know what you are doing, the Gym Leaders aren't going to be anything like in the handheld games. I think people will enjoy it more this way. C/D that with me, but would you really want an MMO you can beat in like a week?

Another thing I think is that, once you beat a Gym Leader, there will be a wait period before you can challenge the next one. One to two days, at the most. Again, some people might see this as a drag, but with seventeen gyms, this will add a lot of playability while giving you incentive to explore and try other things out.

I think I started to ramble, lol, but I hope that answers your question. That's what I intend with PU, and I'll bring it up when we come to it.

I like all this, and I'm glad there will be a wait in between gyms also, now no one will be able to just fly through all the gyms, they will actually have to play and experience all the other features of the game.

Raikt never confirmed that there would be a waiting period... you act like he did
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 05, 2010, 01:51:22 AM
Raikt never confirmed that there would be a waiting period... you act like he did
He isn't really. All he said was that there should be a wait period between fighting two seperate gyms.
Anywhoo, this sounds like a good idea to me, but I don't get the penalty of losing a trainer level for losing a match. Sure, it would make people be more prepared before the fights, but, 'cmon, don't all the old wise men always say that you learn more from losing than you fdo from winning? it's true. so why would your trainer get worse at training pokemon just because he lost a battle? Granted, making him improve would just make the game too easy, but, c'mon...
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Amphi on July 05, 2010, 03:20:18 AM
Raikt never confirmed that there would be a waiting period... you act like he did
He isn't really. All he said was that there should be a wait period between fighting two seperate gyms.
Anywhoo, this sounds like a good idea to me, but I don't get the penalty of losing a trainer level for losing a match. Sure, it would make people be more prepared before the fights, but, 'cmon, don't all the old wise men always say that you learn more from losing than you fdo from winning? it's true. so why would your trainer get worse at training pokemon just because he lost a battle? Granted, making him improve would just make the game too easy, but, c'mon...

actually neokills is assuming Raikt did here

I like all this, and I'm glad there will be a wait in between gyms also, now no one will be able to just fly through all the gyms, they will actually have to play and experience all the other features of the game.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 05, 2010, 04:42:19 AM
I like all this, and I'm glad there will be a wait in between gyms also, now no one will be able to just fly through all the gyms, they will actually have to play and experience all the other features of the game.
Huh. I must've missed that one. Whoopsies.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Amphi on July 05, 2010, 05:12:08 AM
I like all this, and I'm glad there will be a wait in between gyms also, now no one will be able to just fly through all the gyms, they will actually have to play and experience all the other features of the game.
Huh. I must've missed that one. Whoopsies.

yeah oh well it happens
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on July 05, 2010, 10:06:22 AM
I like all this, and I'm glad there will be a wait in between gyms also, now no one will be able to just fly through all the gyms, they will actually have to play and experience all the other features of the game.
Huh. I must've missed that one. Whoopsies.

yeah oh well it happens

I reviewed Raikt's post, and it was very confusing. I had to think about it. No, neokills, Raikt did NOT confirm anything. If you look closely, "I think" where he mentions between-Gyms

However, It took me a while to realize this, so dont I blame him.

Anyways....Back on topic, Please. I don't think we need to bicker about neokills misunder standing.

I like Raikt's IDEA, 2 hours seems like a reasonable wait period if you lose. I played PWO, with my usual starter, Charmander. However, it took forever to beat Brock. Here's why:
1: I assumed that since it updates a lot, the move pool would be acccurate. I know Charmander learns Metal Claw at Lv 11, but They didnt.
2: Everytime I lost, I had to wait 48 Hours, WTF.
3: (This one was more the trainers fault.) about 70 Percent of Trainers there had Crazy strong pokemon. So, i Gained 0 EXP.

In this case, 2 hours if you lose to a Gym, I agree.

and also, you should only be able to battle with players that have roughly the same number of badges. This should Prevent PvP Mismatch battles.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 05, 2010, 05:51:39 PM
Actually, Unbreakable, Charmander doesn't learn Metal Claw in the DPPt/HGSS moveset at all. It's only in FRLG that it learns Metal Claw, but then, at Lv 13.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on July 05, 2010, 07:04:44 PM
ok, Jerry, but read the Whole post.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 05, 2010, 07:16:44 PM
Uh... I did, already... twice.

And, do you want my opinion too?

Well, I like the idea of having to wait for some time before being able to battle a gym leader again if the first attempt was vain... and Raikt's post covered everything I would have said, plus the things I wouldn't have said, so...
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on July 05, 2010, 07:30:05 PM
What about the Badge Restriction?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 05, 2010, 07:39:35 PM
Well, since they plan on making PvP only to players close in trainer level... I see no much need to include badge restriction. Often, you can have a strong player without many badges... who plans on having them shortly.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on July 05, 2010, 08:33:35 PM
true...............................................
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 05, 2010, 11:55:17 PM
Alright, I support this idea, but I think we need to look at the downsides that it might bring...
Offhand, all I can really think of is that impatient players and angsty teenagers would get frustrated and produce rage, which they will use to go around bashing the PU team on the broadest chat option availible. Of course, the game shouldn't be made easier just to save players the trouble of muting immature people.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 06, 2010, 04:40:15 PM
Well, let them bash the PU Team, what else can they do? If they aren't a good player, that doesn't mean the game is not good. Games are to be challenging. The true gamers seek challenge and difficulty, which when they overcome, they can be satisfied with themselves of some sort of achievement. Is it not right?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Raikt on July 06, 2010, 05:24:59 PM
Bashing != productive criticism.

We have an ideas and suggestions forum for a reason; we're not only open to ideas and suggestions, but we would also like to hear back from the players. (Once that game is out, at least.) So, you can be sure that we're reading your ideas. If people don't like a time period between losses, but only because it bothers them, it's not a valid complaint.

If quite a few people complain that it is too long and they can't get in a victory more than once, say a week, because of time constraints, then we can easily modify it.

There is already a fine line between welcoming casual players and appeasing hardcore gamers. Keeping both audiences in mind is what I do when proposing ideas.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: TheGr8 on July 09, 2010, 04:14:10 AM
Phew. Topics move fast around here. (Or maybe I'm just slow...)

I was actually just thinking about this the other day after reading the newest posts in the other Gym Leader thread. It's like you guys here always know what is on my mind. I consider that a good thing. Anyway, to answer your question, I'm for a wait period in which a player cannot challenge a Gym Leader again. My thought was around ~2 hours. This gives them ample time to go train, learn, try out some new combinations, but without being overly annoying. (If you ask me.)

It also stops one, crucial thing; power leveling. There would be, unless we did something odd like giving  you no experience, no way to stop someone from power leveling their Pokemon by just losing over and over again while still accumulating experience. Trust me. People would do this; in fact, I can guarantee it would happen unless we impose some form of limit to Gym Battles.

The battles are already going to be hard, to stop people from breezing through them. I'll make sure of that myself. (Talent trees, IV's, and movesets if you will.) So, I can pretty much assue you that, unless you know what you are doing, the Gym Leaders aren't going to be anything like in the handheld games. I think people will enjoy it more this way. C/D that with me, but would you really want an MMO you can beat in like a week?

Another thing I think is that, once you beat a Gym Leader, there will be a wait period before you can challenge the next one. One to two days, at the most. Again, some people might see this as a drag, but with seventeen gyms, this will add a lot of playability while giving you incentive to explore and try other things out.

I think I started to ramble, lol, but I hope that answers your question. That's what I intend with PU, and I'll bring it up when we come to it.

Going to agree with everything except the no exp from gym battles. Then that would mean wild battles and other trainer battles EXP have to be raised right?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 09, 2010, 04:40:52 AM
Going to agree with everything except the no exp from gym battles. Then that would mean wild battles and other trainer battles EXP have to be raised right?
Then you're still agreeing with everything.
There would be, unless we did something odd like giving  you no experience, no way to stop someone from power leveling their Pokemon by just losing over and over again while still accumulating experience.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: lucifer on July 19, 2010, 06:46:07 PM
I like the waiting period between Gym losses, but I think that two hours is too short.  Way too short.  I'm thinking it should be delayed by eight hours between challenges.  That way, it gives those who are actually playing respectably a chance to take what they learned during the Gym Leader battle and train to overcome what killed them.

I also like the idea that the Gym Leader's Pokémon should provide no experience on knockout.  That negates the power leveling problem.

And I think that a time limit between a Gym victory and a challenge at the next Gym is a good idea as well.  I think the waiting period there should be measured in days and not hours, though.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: boyben10 on July 20, 2010, 12:03:48 AM
I think hours is good enough, like make a person wait only a few hours, because time is longer while waiting.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 20, 2010, 01:55:13 AM
I think that first attempt losses should only be penalized with an 8-24 hour wait period.
 
WHile a second loss to a gym leader should be penalised with loss 30-75% of money (goldz) or valuable items and an even longer wait period.
 
If a player were to lose a third time, all of the previous penalties plus the loss of a poke'. (possibly the weakest in the line-up.)
 
and etc.
 
Punishments as strict as these are more realistic than infinite battles with the only penalty being a wait period equivalent to one's bed time.
 
 
The harsh penalty also deters power leveling and any other perk one may have from losing to a gym leader.
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Marissa on July 20, 2010, 02:04:07 AM
Losing a Pokemon?  But what if you trained it, and you just happened to lose to a difficult Gym Leader?  I would hate to lose my starter.  And what would determine what your weakest Pokemon is?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 20, 2010, 02:24:44 AM
I would hate to lose my starter.  And what would determine what your weakest Pokemon is?

Lowest level and least number of attacks can determine what the weakest is.
 
Losing pokemon would only be a penalty for losing 3 times and that is fairly reasonable.  Anyone losing to a gym leader (knowing they may not win), deserves to have something of value lost.
 
The handhelds were made easy because the Gym leaders are the one's giving the badges and exp, the TM/HMs, etc while the gym leader have absolutely nothing to gain in a win.
 
Adding penalties like this would keep the players, abusing the power lvling technique, honest and weed out the losers.
 
 
PLus, if you lose 3 times to the same gym leader, it is fairly obvious that the weakess pokemon in your team is the weakes link. Why keep?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 20, 2010, 03:06:49 AM
Uh... I get the losing something of value, but... how can you justify taking away their pokemon, or calling other players losers? What's happening to the pokemon, anyway? Is the Gym leader just gonna say, "I want your pokeman, it's MIIIIIINEEE!" ?
And... there shouldn't be a loss of exp, there should just be a loss of money. I get having to 'pay' for a second loss, so that can be justified, but will you honestly become a worse trainer by losing a match?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on July 20, 2010, 04:10:01 AM
I would hate to lose my starter.  And what would determine what your weakest Pokemon is?

Lowest level and least number of attacks can determine what the weakest is.
 
Losing pokemon would only be a penalty for losing 3 times and that is fairly reasonable.  Anyone losing to a gym leader (knowing they may not win), deserves to have something of value lost.
 
The handhelds were made easy because the Gym leaders are the one's giving the badges and exp, the TM/HMs, etc while the gym leader have absolutely nothing to gain in a win.
 
Adding penalties like this would keep the players, abusing the power lvling technique, honest and weed out the losers.
 
 
PLus, if you lose 3 times to the same gym leader, it is fairly obvious that the weakess pokemon in your team is the weakes link. Why keep?

Even So, That goes Against everything Pokemon Stands for, If you lose a Pokemon like that youre losing a friend, even if they are weak.

I say No.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 20, 2010, 04:26:51 AM
Uh... I get the losing something of value, but... how can you justify taking away their pokemon

If a player wins a gym battle, it enables them to move on to the next gym without incident, Unlock new quests and content, and explore new lands The gym badge that they recieve is among the most valuable things in the game. It's a symbol for status and tenure in the game.
 
WHy should a player that loses 20 times and gets lucky on the 21st try get the same prize and acheive the same status as a player that pwns in the first or second attempt, without any kind of punishment for losing? Something has to be lost and if it's a pokemon, the penalty seems reasonable.
 
Quote

or calling other players losers?
If you dont want to lose anything valuable... how about not lose.
 
Quote

And... there shouldn't be a loss of exp, there should just be a loss of money

totally agree, I never mentioned anything of the loss of exp.
 
Quote

I get having to 'pay' for a second loss, so that can be justified, but will you honestly become a worse trainer by losing a match?

If there isnt a legitimate (reason to fear) penalty or punishment for losing, abuse and boredom eventually become the outcome. Trainers that lose a first time will experience the thrill and urgency of actually getting better before re-battling... rather than rebattling 10 minutes later and getting pwned numerous times without any will to improve.
 
Harsh punishments or the potential of a harsh outcome brings out the best in people.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 20, 2010, 04:52:58 AM
You keep saying harsh punishments, but, c'mon, there are ways to punish people without haxxing their pokemon. And as long as we're okay with doing things that could easily be considered unfair, why don't we make that punishment be that the words "Newfag loser" appear above their name until they beat the gym leader? And honestly, they DO deserve the same status as someone who beat the gym on try one, regardless of how many attempts it took them. Wanna know why? Because the second they beat that gym leader, they have made the very same accomplishment that the other guy did, albeit it took him longer.

Moreover, you can lose to a gym leader three times... without xp farming or being a 'loser'. It took me about four tries each game to beat the elite four, and PU is supposed to make the gym leaders much more challenging than anything from the handhelds.

And again, what is this gym leader, a secret member of team rocket? What business does he have, taking your pokemon?

...And even if this were implemented, it would be laughably easy to exploit. I normally only used three pokemon in the handhelds, which I pulled off by making them very different types and levelling them far beyond that particular zone's norm. That leaves three slots just for fillers, to save you the trouble of losing a rare pokemon you were in the process of training when you lost to the gym leader for the third time.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: neokills on July 20, 2010, 09:27:32 AM
losing your pokemon because you lost a battle??? come on are you being serious??? thats is the dumbest and most ridiculous  thing i have ever heard, i for one am sure glad you are not making this game, or have any part in  making this game. enough said...
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on July 20, 2010, 02:01:52 PM
I would hate to lose my starter.  And what would determine what your weakest Pokemon is?

Lowest level and least number of attacks can determine what the weakest is.
 
Losing pokemon would only be a penalty for losing 3 times and that is fairly reasonable.  Anyone losing to a gym leader (knowing they may not win), deserves to have something of value lost.
 
The handhelds were made easy because the Gym leaders are the one's giving the badges and exp, the TM/HMs, etc while the gym leader have absolutely nothing to gain in a win.
 
Adding penalties like this would keep the players, abusing the power lvling technique, honest and weed out the losers.
 
 
PLus, if you lose 3 times to the same gym leader, it is fairly obvious that the weakess pokemon in your team is the weakes link. Why keep?

Even So, That goes Against everything Pokemon Stands for, If you lose a Pokemon like that youre losing a friend, even if they are weak.

I say No.

^^^^This is what I said earlier, If it needs to be repeated again, so be it, but Im warning you I may get pushy in trying to defend It.

I agree with Frenchfry, Public humiliation is acceptable.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 20, 2010, 02:33:16 PM
losing your pokemon because you lost a battle??? come on are you being serious??? thats is the dumbest and most ridiculous  thing i have ever heard, i for one am sure glad you are not making this game, or have any part in  making this game. enough said...

The dumbest and most ridiculous.. really?... It's only dumb to you because you and everyone else is so used to being able to parade through a game without consequence, one little obstacle that doesnt appear in the handhelds is automatically assumed as dumb, may want to stop crying and learn to adapt (an overture to evolution, mind you).
 
If pokemon were real, no gym leader would ever have the patience to seriously battle the same loser 20 times. (am I right?) Something would have to be lost (Im also aware that poke's arent real). And dead weight  (ex. lvl 8 paras) seems about right.
 
Im fairly sure the loss of poke's wont be implemented but it's obvious that that something needs to be lost.
 
Heck, most gym badges in the handhelds are worth more than some of the weak a$$ poke's out there.
 
And as I said before, stop crying. It's only a suggestion.
 
And as I've said many times before, if your poke's were worth half a crap, it wouldnt take as many attempts to battle in the first place. It's an easy concept, dont make 20 attempts to defeat a gym leader, if you do... you may lose the dead weight in your team.
 
I dont get how that is dumb at all. tbh.
 
Is it because you didnt think of it? Is it because it's different? Is it because you planned to power level and losing (dead weight) poke's would interfere? Is it because losing poke's has never been a consequence ever in the history of pokemon?

This is an MMO after all.
 
I'd seriously like to hear how it is dumb...
 
It is certainly more effective than,
 
"hey.... you have to wait 20 minutes because you've already lost to me 11 times earlier today without any signs of improvement."
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 20, 2010, 03:02:43 PM
You keep saying harsh punishments, but, c'mon, there are ways to punish people without haxxing their pokemon. And as long as we're okay with doing things that could easily be considered unfair, why don't we make that punishment be that the words "Newfag loser" appear above their name until they beat the gym leader?

lol, if they are spending all of their time in the gym battling and re-battling.. no one's gonna ever notice. PLus, that isnt humiliating at all. Some may even strive for "Newfag loser" status for the lulz.
 
If they are exploiting the system by power leveling, they arnt going to care what's placed over their heads when they are gaining insane levels.
 

 And honestly, they DO deserve the same status as someone who beat the gym on try one, regardless of how many attempts it took them. Wanna know why? Because the second they beat that gym leader, they have made the very same accomplishment that the other guy did, albeit it took him longer.

That is just like saying that a person who works and goes to school all through his/her life and becomes an entreprenuer to finally become a millionaire (the player defeating the Gym leader with little effort) is at the same level as a homeless drunk meth-head, that dropped out of highschool, that wins the lottery (the player that takes a little longer to get to his million dollar goal, but FINALLY gets it.)
 
 
Yea, they both have a million dollars, but seriously, are they really on the same level? Will they ever really be on the same level? seriously?>


 
Moreover, you can lose to a gym leader three times... without xp farming or being a 'loser'.

Never mentioned the farming of exp. Only poke's
 
 
It took me about four tries each game to beat the elite four, and PU is supposed to make the gym leaders much more challenging than anything from the handhelds.

I was only talking about gym leaders. I understand how difficult it is to defeat the elite. Hell, it's in their name. But Fisherman Barneypants (the water gym leader) doesnt seem to be a member of the elite.
 

And again, what is this gym leader, a secret member of team rocket? What business does he have, taking your pokemon?

Not a member of team rocket, but a member of the pokemon league commision (PLC).
 
Example to help you all understand mi pointo, Try teaching the piano to a 30 year old guy wiht no sense of rhythm, timing, or talent whatsoever. Everyday, coming in just as bad as he was the day before. Are you going to quit tutoring him because he's bad? NO. because he's paying your bills. Why stop?
 
Will you continue to charge him (or charge him even more) even though he'll never get better? Probably.
 
Continuing to charge this guy, that is the toll for wasting time and effort.
 
Same concept for gym leaders.
 
WHich is, as said before, fairly reasonable.

 

...And even if this were implemented, it would be laughably easy to exploit. I normally only used three pokemon in the handhelds, which I pulled off by making them very different types and levelling them far beyond that particular zone's norm. That leaves three slots just for fillers, to save you the trouble of losing a rare pokemon you were in the process of training when you lost to the gym leader for the third time.

Never said rarest, only the weakest (PLease dont twist the text.) But if your weakest just happened to be rare, oops.   :'( .
 
The suggestion suggests that the weakest in one's party be taken. I'd imagine a part of 3 still equals a party.   :-\
 
 
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 20, 2010, 04:43:24 PM
lol, if they are spending all of their time in the gym battling and re-battling.. no one's gonna ever notice. PLus, that isnt humiliating at all. Some may even strive for "Newfag loser" status for the lulz.
And some people make an effort to die, it still sucks, though. And they aren't spending all their time in the gym. They have eight hours after the battle where the gym is totally useless after the gym trainers are beat.
Quote
That is just like saying that a person who works and goes to school all through his/her life and becomes an entreprenuer to finally become a millionaire (the player defeating the Gym leader with little effort) is at the same level as a homeless drunk meth-head, that dropped out of highschool, that wins the lottery (the player that takes a little longer to get to his million dollar goal, but FINALLY gets it.)
 
 
Yea, they both have a million dollars, but seriously, are they really on the same level? Will they ever really be on the same level? seriously?>
It's not like that at all. The homeless guy just got lucky in the lottery, whereas the player who took several tries to beat the gym leader EARNED the win. Imagine someone who became a millionare at age twenty, as opposed to one that became a millionare at age twenty-seven. They're both millionares, but it took the second guy a bit longer. They're still on the same level.
Quote
Never mentioned the farming of exp. Only poke's
You did, actually. Even in that post.
Quote
...If they are exploiting the system by power leveling...
Quote
Not a member of team rocket, but a member of the pokemon league commision (PLC).
 
Example to help you all understand mi pointo, Try teaching the piano to a 30 year old guy wiht no sense of rhythm, timing, or talent whatsoever. Everyday, coming in just as bad as he was the day before. Are you going to quit tutoring him because he's bad? NO. because he's paying your bills. Why stop?
 
Will you continue to charge him (or charge him even more) even though he'll never get better? Probably.
 
Continuing to charge this guy, that is the toll for wasting time and effort.
 
Same concept for gym leaders.
 
WHich is, as said before, fairly reasonable.
Are we touching up on your personal life here? :D
And no, it isn't fairly reasonable. The piano teacher is charging money. He's not taking your pets as payment.

...and Three in a party means that you have three more slots for fillers, to prevent you from losing anything you care about.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 20, 2010, 05:58:53 PM
lol, if they are spending all of their time in the gym battling and re-battling.. no one's gonna ever notice. PLus, that isnt humiliating at all. Some may even strive for "Newfag loser" status for the lulz.
And some people make an effort to die, it still sucks, though. And they aren't spending all their time in the gym. They have eight hours after the battle where the gym is totally useless after the gym trainers are beat. 

That is tantamount to one's bed-time. Havent you heard of spam accounts? If i wanted to spam (via power leveling), i'd just log into it right before going to bed battle, lose.. then log in when i wake up.
 
*cough cough*, still being exploited. Losing a poke (and/or something valuable) would completely eliminate exploitation.
 
I dont think anyone can seriously argue that. (I agree, it borders the land of absurdity yet it is undoubtedly effective.)
 
Are you bashing this idea because it's different because as i've said many times before, it is fairly reasonable and actually presents a challenge (that no one is willing to take on)  :'( .
 
 

Quote
That is just like saying that a person who works and goes to school all through his/her life and becomes an entreprenuer to finally become a millionaire (the player defeating the Gym leader with little effort) is at the same level as a homeless drunk meth-head, that dropped out of highschool, that wins the lottery (the player that takes a little longer to get to his million dollar goal, but FINALLY gets it.)
 
 
Yea, they both have a million dollars, but seriously, are they really on the same level? Will they ever really be on the same level? seriously?>

Quote
It's not like that at all. The homeless guy just got lucky in the lottery, whereas the player who took several tries to beat the gym leader EARNED the win.

You're assuming too much...
 
I never said the homeless guy actually tried. Only thing the homeless drunk, meth-head actually did was rely on luck (the lottery)... no effort involved. It only took him a long time for luck to kick in... not his hard work and effort.
 
While the entrepreneur reaches his goal with "little effort" (as stated above, not several attempts..). The Entrepreneur completed the task because he/she was prepared, well in advance (the schooling and hard work).
 
Again, are they really on the same level?>
 
Quote
Imagine someone who became a millionare at age twenty, as opposed to one that became a millionare at age twenty-seven. They're both millionares, but it took the second guy a bit longer. They're still on the same level.

What does age have to do with anything? I think that a man's effort speaks more loudly that his age/experience.
 
The argument could go either way.. the 20 and 27 year old's maturity, gender, financial investments, family background, criminal history, place of residency and other factors actually make your example impossible to really know what the level is and what it takes to really be on what level.
 
While mine is fairly simple..... homeless drunkard (Player that loses for the hell of it, or is just that bad) <<<<<<<<<<<< Hard-working individual (player that is prepared, aware of potential costs.. and is willing to take the risk) everytime.
 
Not even close. Never ever will be close
 
Quote
Never mentioned the farming of exp. Only poke's
Quote
You did, actually. Even in that post.

Even in what post? No i didnt. I've said etc... but never EXP..... how and why would exp be taken away when you can simply take away a poke?
 

Quote
...If they are exploiting the system by power leveling...
Quote
Not a member of team rocket, but a member of the pokemon league commision (PLC).
 
Example to help you all understand mi pointo, Try teaching the piano to a 30 year old guy wiht no sense of rhythm, timing, or talent whatsoever. Everyday, coming in just as bad as he was the day before. Are you going to quit tutoring him because he's bad? NO. because he's paying your bills. Why stop?
 
Will you continue to charge him (or charge him even more) even though he'll never get better? Probably.
 
Continuing to charge this guy, that is the toll for wasting time and effort.
 
Same concept for gym leaders.
 
WHich is, as said before, fairly reasonable.
Are we touching up on your personal life here? :D 

Just a little.
 
Quote
And no, it isn't fairly reasonable. The piano teacher is charging money. He's not taking your pets as payment.

Same concept here... instead of losing money, you'd lose a poke' (the toll). Anyone's that ever played a Pokemon handheld know how insignificant money is... and anyone's that ever played a pokemon handheld knows how valuable pokemon are.
 
Which is a fairly reasonable trade-off.

*cough cough*

Dont want to lose a poke' dont lose.


Quote
...and Three in a party means that you have three more slots for fillers, to prevent you from losing anything you care about.


Alright, if you'd lose a pokemon.. whether you care about it or not, why the lack of acceptance?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on July 20, 2010, 06:27:02 PM
Im getting Sick of the BS. All the fighting is getting out of hand, Its pointless, SO STOP.

Bottom Line: Ghost has his Ideas, we have ours, thats life, suck it up.

Your wasting your time fighting an argument no one is going to win. Forget it.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 20, 2010, 09:19:12 PM
Hm... what about... your pokemon losing confidence in you?

Then, re-introduce the system of 'XXX disobeyed orders'
Of course, this should be extremely gradual.

Like for example, you get 1 badge. The confidence level of your pokemon are raised from... say 10 to 30. You lose your first match against the second gym leader. Nothing happens to their confidence. Lose a second time, say, it decreases to 28. Then, successively to 25, 21, 15, 10, etc. Once it gets negative, well, the disobeying starts.

Now, other scenario, winning after the first lost, resets the confidence level, and adds the amount of points it should. If 20 more should be added, then the total would be 30 + 20 = 50, as if you never lost. But then, on your first lost, you already lost money, and if things are really expensive in PU, losing that money won't be considered lightly.

Just an idea...
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on July 21, 2010, 12:03:27 AM
Thats better.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 21, 2010, 04:05:46 AM
Im getting Sick of the BS. All the fighting is getting out of hand, Its pointless, SO STOP.

Bottom Line: Ghost has his Ideas, we have ours, thats life, suck it up.

Your wasting your time fighting an argument no one is going to win. Forget it.

Who's arguing? who's fighting?
 
He's presenting his points, im presenting mine... kinda like.. ya know.. a conversation.....   

You, stop bit- crying!
 
Hm... what about... your pokemon losing confidence in you?

I like this idea, but the confidence thing would have to be present in all battle types to really be effective. There will be other things to do in PU besides battling gym leaders.
 
There could possibly be a whole week or month gap in between gym battles.... so what are the poke's to do.. maintain the same level of confidence even though he's battling 100 other times in PvP PvE and NPCvP?
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: St. Jimmy on July 21, 2010, 05:08:07 AM
I like the idea of pokemon losing confidence in you, but i agree with ghostman that pokemon should lose confidence after losing any battle. Maybe pokemon could lose more confidence after losing to a gym leader than losing to some other trainer.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 21, 2010, 05:34:46 AM
I like the idea of pokemon losing confidence in you, but i agree with ghostman that pokemon should lose confidence after losing any battle. Maybe pokemon could lose more confidence after losing to a gym leader than losing to some other trainer.
Actually, the drop should be less from the gym leader. Because losing to a gym leader as opposed to a normal npc is like losing to Mike Tyson as opposed to a mediocre boxer. I would be a bit embarrassed to lose to the latter, while I wouldn't think much of getting owned by Mr. Tyson. At the same time, gym battles are far more significant, so should be a heavy hitter... so now we're gonna have to choose between system-logic and social-logic. What-evs.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: St. Jimmy on July 21, 2010, 06:35:04 AM
Now that i think about it that makes more sense.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 21, 2010, 04:37:59 PM
Hmm... maybe 'link' the confidence level to each trainer level you go up.

Unfortunately, I still don't know how the system of trainer level will work, but it's just an idea. And, a pokemon battle remains a pokemon battle no matter what, so the lost in any case will be the same, IMO. Acquiring badges is just a way to boost that level, while NPC battling, PVP battling etc just help to maintain their confidence at the level they are.

Woops, those are clashing ideas now... perhaps not so much after some thinking... hmm...

How about it?
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 21, 2010, 08:48:55 PM
I like the confidence level. I think it shouldn't be affected by pvp battles, though, because you don't really have to be bad at the game to lose in a poopstorm* of people that are looking up strategies for battles during the battle.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 22, 2010, 07:33:37 AM
That can be considered too... :)

But in any event where you get a good reward, I think that the confidence level should increase (I referring to badges, and trophees from tourneys)
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 22, 2010, 02:19:11 PM
I like the confidence level. I think it shouldn't be affected by pvp battles, though, because you don't really have to be bad at the game to lose in a crapstorm* of people that are looking up strategies for battles during the battle.

lol, what do you have against challenges?
 
 
 
Oh, and the confidence thing would also have to rely on how often players are allowed to re-challenge (non-gym related) NPCs. Obviously if the option to re-challenge NPCs is available, the NPCs would end up possessing stronger poke's after subsequent battles (at least that's the idea). So should the confidence lost/gained count more for/against the player when battling NPCs with poke's higher than the base levels ?
 
 There was a thread, a while back, inquiring about re-battling... but I cant find the thread.. nor do i remember if there was a definite conclusion to if it will even be available.
 
And, should confidence gained be applied to an entire team... or just the poke's used. Same for losses, should the confidence lost only be applied to the team, or for all poke's (even the one's in PC)?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 22, 2010, 02:34:59 PM
If each pokemon had a different confidence level, that would be another problem too I think. First off, it'll mean more work, then, it also means you can have pokemon that once disobeyed, you put it in a box, and when you retrieve it, it still disobeys you even when you have got badges in between that period. I think that it would rather be attached to the trainer, like some sort of background calculations, on all the pokemon.

Hm... perhaps put it like this (in this 'scale' fashion and level ups):
Get a badge: +30 points
Win a match: +1 point + (negates all the loss due to matches with that same opponent)
Lose a match: -1, -2, -4, -9, -16, -25 (perhaps in this way)
Get a trophee (tournaments): +50 points

Now, there are confidence levels.
Say...
Lv 1 - 10 points
Lv 2 - 15 points
Lv 3 - 25 points
.
.
.
Lv 20 - 1600 points
etc

Negatives will bring down the points, and subsequently levels.
If you lose against a trainer say 5 times using this math, you lose 16 points.
If you now win the 6th time, you get a total of 17 points, that is the lost is cancelled, and you get your usual point. (or your pokemon see that you succeeded in overcoming an obstacle once unable for you to overcome, so they 'appreciate' that effort)

Well, I know this might not make sense, or should the loss be kept? I don't know. Some might find it unfair that after finally winning, the pokemon still don't obey him/her much.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 22, 2010, 03:24:45 PM
lol, what do you have against challenges?
It's not that I have something against challenges, it's just that, as I said, you can be good at the game and still lose to several other players in a row, just like you can be good at Super Smash Bros. and still lose to one of those wavedash-y tournyfags.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 22, 2010, 07:06:44 PM
Quote

First off, it'll mean more work, then, it also means you can have pokemon that once disobeyed, you put it in a box, and when you retrieve it, it still disobeys you even when you have got badges in between that period.

Shouldn't a poke' have low confidence anyway for being stuck in the PC? It actually makes sense to link poke's confidence to the actual pokemon and not the trainer. If the trainer is stuck training his 6-10 wiht 200 other poke's (sparsely used and have low confidence from previous losses) in the PC, he/she shouldnt expect them to automatically accept (obey) the trainer.
 
 
Quote

you can be good at the game and still lose to several other players in a row,

Impossible.
 
Pokemon is one of those "here and now" games, as most are. No one cares if you know the rules or if you have an amazing team. Only thing that constitues a "good player" is defeating your opponent at that given point in time. If you're unable to defeat your opponent, then you're obviously no good.
 
fairly simple eh.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 22, 2010, 07:14:35 PM
If you're unable to defeat your opponent, then you're obviously no good.
I'm going to let the absolute nonsense of this statement slide.
Are you trying to tell me that never, EVER, in the history of mankind, has someone good at something lost to someone else at that thing? Losing to someone else at something does not mean that you're no good at it. Muhammed Ali was certainly good at what he did, but Mike Tyson could destroy him in one punch.
Even in pokemon, I'm assuming that you find yourself to be pretty good at it, right? Don't even TRY to tell me that you've never lost to an NPC, because that would just be a downright lie. And NPCs in pokemon have the worst AI ever. If someone good at the game can lose to an NPC, they can certainly lose to an actual player.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 22, 2010, 07:18:13 PM
Shouldn't a poke' have low confidence anyway for being stuck in the PC? It actually makes sense to link poke's confidence to the actual pokemon and not the trainer. If the trainer is stuck training his 6-10 wiht 200 other poke's (sparsely used and have low confidence from previous losses) in the PC, he/she shouldnt expect them to automatically accept (obey) the trainer.

Hmm.. what I had in mind is the PC that we already have in the handhelds, that is, there is some sort of 'stop in time' when you put a pokemon in the PC. If we're really going towards making sense, then you would probably end up with only a small group of pokemon with high confidence.

You can keep 6 with you at a time. Say you switch pokemon each day, still, there will be pokemon which will remain in the PC for more than 30 days (assuming there are 200 pokemon). Should these pokemon experience a drop in confidence too? You are however trying to keep all of them at a reasonable confidence level.

I understand that it makes more sense to link each pokemon to the trainer rather than all of them... maybe we could align it with the system of EXP?

Quote from: Fry
I'm going to let the absolute nonsense of this statement slide.
Are you trying to tell me that never, EVER, in the history of mankind, has someone good at something lost to someone else at that thing? Losing to someone else at something does not mean that you're no good at it. Muhammed Ali was certainly good at what he did, but Mike Tyson could destroy him in one punch.
Even in pokemon, I'm assuming that you find yourself to be pretty good at it, right? Don't even TRY to tell me that you've never lost to an NPC, because that would just be a downright lie. And NPCs in pokemon have the worst AI ever. If someone good at the game can lose to an NPC, they can certainly lose to an actual player.

I agree, because there is also the element of luck in pokemon battles, and by this, I'm referring mainly to critical hits, and the random number generated before each damage is calculated and applied.

EDIT: I think I overlooked something :-[

Of course, losing several matches in a row require sheer bad luck, lol :D
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 22, 2010, 07:26:08 PM
If you're unable to defeat your opponent, then you're obviously no good.
I'm going to let the absolute nonsense of this statement slide.
Are you trying to tell me that never, EVER, in the history of mankind, has someone good at something lost to someone else at that thing? Losing to someone else at something does not mean that you're no good at it. Muhammed Ali was certainly good at what he did, but Mike Tyson could destroy him in one punch.

Im sure he could, he has Parkinson's (sp?) disease and he's like 70 something.
 

Quote
Even in pokemon, I'm assuming that you find yourself to be pretty good at it, right? Don't even TRY to tell me that you've never lost to an NPC, because that would just be a downright lie. And NPCs in pokemon have the worst AI ever. If someone good at the game can lose to an NPC, they can certainly lose to an actual player.


I get what you're saying... but what really constitues a good player? beating an NPC, is that really an accomplishment (other than gym leaders and elite 4)?
 
When I say "here and now" game.. i mean exactly how it's said.  No one cares about past accomplishments (so what if you're number 1). There is no possible way to gauge a player's worth in a game until it's actually played (There is no DBZ radar gun mask eye patch thingie.) The only way to tell if someone is really good, is to see them in action.. and if the player in question happens to lose to "several players in a row"... does that really mean that he/she is any good?
 
hmmm. In mi eyes, No.
 
In your passive illusory world... probably the greatest alive.
 
 
 In short, you're only as good as your last match.
 
 
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 22, 2010, 07:36:37 PM
When I say "here and now" game.. i mean exactly how it's said.  No one cares about past accomplishments (so what if you're number 1). There is no possible way to gauge a player's worth in a game until it's actually played (There is no DBZ radar gun mask eye patch thingie.) The only way to tell if someone is really good, is to see them in action.. and if the player in question happens to lose to "several players in a row"... does that really mean that he/she is any good?
 
hmmm. In mi eyes, No.
 
In your passive illusory world... probably the greatest alive.
Mmm... More personal interference?
Anyway, Losing streaks happen. Nobody cares what you've done in the past in Call of Duty, either, but a good player can still have a losing streak if he goes up against BETTER players.
I don't think you're getting the detail that good and bad isn't black and white. There's a big-ass gray area of average, okay, good, skilled, great, pimped, awesome, and godly.
If someone at the 'skilled' level battles five 'pimped' players in a row, he's liable to lose, but that doesn't mean he's any worse at the game. It just means he was in several mismatched battles.

Im sure he could, he has Parkinson's
Really, dude? I'm talking about both of them in the peak of their careers. Ali was great. Tyson was better.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 23, 2010, 07:00:48 AM
When I say "here and now" game.. i mean exactly how it's said.  No one cares about past accomplishments (so what if you're number 1). There is no possible way to gauge a player's worth in a game until it's actually played (There is no DBZ radar gun mask eye patch thingie.) The only way to tell if someone is really good, is to see them in action.. and if the player in question happens to lose to "several players in a row"... does that really mean that he/she is any good?
 
hmmm. In mi eyes, No.
 
In your passive illusory world... probably the greatest alive.
Mmm... More personal interference?

huh?

Quote
Anyway, Losing streaks happen. Nobody cares what you've done in the past in Call of Duty, either, but a good player can still have a losing streak if he goes up against BETTER players.

Exactly what im trying to figure out. What constitues a good player? Dont you think that if a player is any good, they'd win most, if not all?
 

Quote
I don't think you're getting the detail that good and bad isn't black and white.

ALright! Now you're seeing mi point.
 
 
 
Quote
There's a big-ass gray area of average, okay, good, skilled, great, pimped, awesome, and godly.

Oh God, you completely missed mi point.
 
Side note: We must be using a different dictionary because pimped does not make any sense in that sentence.

Quote
If someone at the 'skilled' level battles five 'pimped' players in a row, he's liable to lose

Again, the standard for being "skilled" and "pimped" is...?
 
In the eyes of the guy losing, he's still skilled... relatively competitive.. ya know.. "Not that bad"
 
 But in the eyes of the pimped player, the losing player is just some loser.. Am I right?
 
Quote
but that doesn't mean he's any worse at the game.

Actually it does. The losing player begins to realise that he/she isnt as good as he/she thought he/she was.
 

Im sure he could, he has Parkinson's
Really, dude? I'm talking about both of them in the peak of their careers. Ali was great. Tyson was better.

 
I wouldnt know, im not into boxing like that.
 
 
Quote from: Jerry
I agree, because there is also the element of luck in pokemon battles, and by this, I'm referring mainly to critical hits, and the random number generated before each damage is calculated and applied.

Closest to the point I was trying to make. Status is relative. A player's only as good as his/her last match and luck decides a players worth at that point in time. If a player that win's relying on luck really any good? If a player losing 7 battles in a row really good?
 
WHo's to say what's good, skilled, pimped, or the worst I've ever seen in mi life? There isnt a scale. Only thing a person can honestly claim is the experience.There isnt a definite name for anything.
 
To be blunt and make mi point, claiming to be "good" (anything more than experienced) is fairly conceited.

 
 
 
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 23, 2010, 04:16:39 PM
Quote
Oh God, you completely missed mi point.
 
Side note: We must be using a different dictionary because pimped does not make any sense in that sentence.
My dictionary includes slang. I like to use slang sometimes because it makes me feel like less of a robot and more of a person.
Quote
But in the eyes of the pimped player, the losing player is just some loser.. Am I right?
Nnnnnnnnope. See, when someone is good at a game, they know they're better than almost everyone else. That means that they know that just because they beat another player, that doesn't make that player any worse at the game. Even so, when did we decide to start talking about how conceited a more experienced player is?
Quote
Actually it does. The losing player begins to realise that he/she isnt as good as he/she thought he/she was.
Uh... What? When did we decide to talk about the player's mentality, too? I'm talking about what IS, not what each person thought there was.
Quote
A player's only as good as his/her last match
Oh, so if I get five hundred straight wins, but then I lose to someone, that means I suddenly suck?
Quote
and luck decides a players worth at that point in time.
...So then why would we make the pokemon stop trusting the player, if the fact that he lost was based entirely on luck?
Quote
To be blunt and make mi point, claiming to be "good" (anything more than experienced) is fairly conceited.
Oh, so it's okay for YOU to call OTHER players LOSERS, but if THEY call THEMSELVES GOOD, then they're conceited? If there's no good, then there's no bad, and you don't get to call players losers anymore.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 23, 2010, 05:59:33 PM
Quote
Oh God, you completely missed mi point.
 
Side note: We must be using a different dictionary because pimped does not make any sense in that sentence.
My dictionary includes slang. I like to use slang sometimes because it makes me feel like less of a robot and more of a person.

So, the massive use of misnomers makes a person a person and not a robot (really? I could have sworn it was breathing.) Thanx for the insight.  :o
 
 
Quote from: ghostman50
But in the eyes of the pimped player, the losing player is just some loser.. Am I right?
Nnnnnnnnope. See, when someone is good at a game, they know they're better than almost everyone else. That means that they know that just because they beat another player, that doesn't make that player any worse at the game.

 

Uh... What? When did we decide to talk about the player's mentality, too?

 
Ill let you think about the above quotes...and give you a second to connect the dots....
 
Alright, dont knowing that you're better than someone count as a player's mentality?
 
hmmm. Just making sure...
 

Even so, when did we decide to start talking about how conceited a more experienced player is?

Im sure that we can both agree that a player that loses 15 games in a row has just experienced 15 loses. In your world, that player can still be "good".. in mine, that player can be among the worst to ever walk the Earth.
 
The grey area between good and bad isnt "pimped" or "guitar bashing" or "trashcan eating" (see how ridiculous this "slang" is).. I believe that the grey area is experience.
 
 
Actually it does. The losing player begins to realise that he/she isnt as good as he/she thought he/she was.

 
Uh... What? When did we decide to talk about the player's mentality, too?
I'm talking about what IS, not what each person thought there was.

Isnt perception the universal scale to gauge good or bad? You dont know that you're good unless you think that you're good. But a player can still be completely horribe.. even whilst thinking he/she's good.
 
You arnt making any sense... or I may have read that sentence wrong.. i dont know.
 

I'm talking about what IS, not what each person thought there was.
Aye aye aye!!
 
Your argument.. You can lose 5 games in a row and still be good. (okay..)
 
Mi response... to others (especially the ones that dominated) the 5 game loser isnt good.
 
Other than the few blind optimists, it's safe to assume that the player isn't any good. Yes, he experienced 5 amazing (earth shattering) losses.. but can anyone honestly point to hard-core evidence and say he's good..... no.
 
Can anyone trick themselves into thinking he's any good... sure.
 
A thought (or perception) has everything to do with status.

A player's only as good as his/her last match
Oh, so if I get five hundred straight wins, but then I lose to someone, that means I suddenly suck?

Find someone that's maintained a streak of 500+ in anything legitimate and come back to me with that one.
 

and luck decides a players worth at that point in time.
...So then why would we make the pokemon stop trusting the player, if the fact that he lost was based entirely on luck?

No idea.
Wasnt mi idea. (jerry's, and it isnt a bad idea)
I went with it because everyone hated mi idea.
What was your idea?
Oh, taking away any and all challenges in the game... great idea!
 
 
Ah, but seriously, it's a simple concept... win you dont lose anything, lose and anything should be up for grabs.
 
Which is fairly reasonable.
 
 
To be blunt and make mi point, claiming to be "good" (anything more than experienced) is fairly conceited.
Oh, so it's okay for YOU to call OTHER players LOSERS, but if THEY call THEMSELVES GOOD, then they're conceited?

It's simple... If you and Mr_Dark battled... fought.. dueled (whatever) one time.. and one time only. And Mr_Dark dominates the chansey out of you, are you not a loser?
 
If you happen to battle him 30 more times and sneak in One or Two wins, are you really any good? Calling yourself good in that scenario is conceited (even we can agree to that right?)
 
You can change the scenario to battling 30 different people and only winning one or two. No reasonable person will ever claim to be "good"... (we can also agree to that right?)
 
 
If there's no good, then there's no bad, and you don't get to call players losers anymore.

So what will a player that loses be called? winners?
 
I never said that there is no good. It's just that your idea of good is skewed, especially if you think that sucessive losses can still mean that a player can be good. Which is absurd. Sure, he may be experienced.. or even talented... but is he really any good?
 
Quick question, what does it take to be a bad player? From all of your responses, anyone can be good no matter how much fail is involved.
 
 
 
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Mr Pokemon on July 23, 2010, 06:19:11 PM
Although there are lots of factors when it comes to deciding if someone is good or not, the main thing is who tje person is being compared to, or who is saying they are good or bad (Or pimpin) For example, if someone wins a tournament, they might consider the people they beat bad, and the people who lost would probably consider the winner good. However, if somebody beats the person who won the tournament, they might consider them bad, and so on.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Crow on July 23, 2010, 06:55:14 PM
Don't forget the fact that someone is only good if they effort to be BETTER each time. One days loss can be another day's victory. I know when I lose to anyone, I train, improve and consider a new strategy to take the next victory. After I claim such victory, I try to improve myself to make sure no one can find a sure-fire system to use to beat me (that's why I love training a Gardevoir. hahaha) ;D  ;D
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 23, 2010, 07:40:51 PM
Quote
So, the massive use of misnomers makes a person a person and not a robot (really? I could have sworn it was breathing.) Thanx for the insight.   
*Counts to ten while breathing heavily* You know, it isn't generally considered to be socially adept to know what someone is talking about, yet still insist on making an argument out of it because it doesn't make 100% literal sense.
Quote
Quote from: frylock contradicting himself
First off, I'm not frylock. I'm definitely more of a knot, or retina scanner. Second, you brought up mentality, I responded to it, then I asked why we suddenly started talking as if a player thinking someone else sucks means that that player sucks.
Quote
Im sure that we can both agree that a player that loses 15 games in a row has just experienced 15 loses.
Purposely operating under a different use of the word in question is, like  pretending you don't know what someone's talking about, commonly considered socially inept. And I think you just invented that fifteen right there. Yep, that was 100% you, that fifteen.
Quote
But a player can still be completely horribe.. even whilst thinking he/she's good.
And a player can think they suck when they're the fifth best out of ten thousand. point being? Good is not a mentality, it's a level of skill relveant to every other participating party.
Quote
Your argument.. You can lose 5 games in a row and still be good. (okay..)
 
Mi response... to others (especially the ones that dominated) the 5 game loser isnt good.
 
Other than the few blind optimists, it's safe to assume that the player isn't any good. Yes, he experienced 5 amazing (earth shattering) losses.. but can anyone honestly point to hard-core evidence and say he's good..... no.
*Counts to fifty*
...If his win/loss ratio is  0/5, then yes, he sucks. I'm not talking about someone who only played those five games he lost. I'm takling about somone who's w/l ratio is around 5/2, which would mean that the player is well above average. If he goes on a losing streak, he doesn't suck. He just so happened to lose five matches in a row, because he was outmatched. If he's payed seventy matches and lost a total of twenty, he's good. Why, then, does that change just because five of those matches were consecutive, and his most recent five?
Quote
Find someone that's maintained a streak of 500+ in anything legitimate and come back to me with that one.
It's a hypothetical situation, ghost. Lemme tone it down. He wins twenty straight matches and loses ONE right after. Does he suddenly suck?
Quote
So what will a player that loses be called? winners?
 
especially if you think that sucessive losses can still mean that a player can be good. Which is absurd.

Sure, he may be experienced.. or even talented... but is he really any good?
 
Quick question, what does it take to be a bad player? From all of your responses, anyone can be good no matter how much fail is involved.
 
1) A player that lost a match is called a player. stop putting the hypothetical people beneath you just because your opinion is that they fail at life just because they lost a pokemon match. Mind you, a loser is someone who fails at life, unless specifically indicated otherwise. You can be the loser of a match without personally being a loser. If not, then everyone on earth is a loser, because nobody goes through life without ever losing.

2) The consecutive losses don't mean the player is good, they just don't invariably mean that the player is bad. if he was unlucky and landed several battles in a row with players whose pokemon were five levels above his, then he would be outmatched, and it was a completely unfair fight. He still lost, but does that really means he sucks? No, it means that the other player had the edge.

3) Talented means skilled. Skilled means proficient. Proficient means above average. Above average means good.

4) Being good at something means being somewhere above the average level of performance for other people. You can still be above average and go on a losing streak.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on July 24, 2010, 04:20:14 PM
Alright, dude. It's early.. im feeling blah right now and this is no longer fun.
 
Quote from: frenchfry545
1) A player that lost a match is called a player.

.....
 
Breaking News! A person that wins a battle, match, duel is called a winner and a person that loses the aformentioned encouters are called losers... *sigh*
 
Im going to make mi point.. then log.
 
The point is fairly simple. Not sure why you reject it. It's not like you have much of an argument, yourself, because when I ask the standard of good, i only get a "uhm derr uhhh" response. Or a ton of broad hypotheticals that mean nothing.
 
 
The concept:
 
You're only as good as your last game, match, duel, fight or whatever.
 
Seriously, how can you argue that?
 
The word, good (like most of your statements) is very broad and too wide-ranging. As stated before, there is no measuring stick for good or bad. There is no grand marshall that establishes these things.
 
Words that describe skill, like good.. bad..pimped, are what we call relative.
 
(rel·a·tiv·ism [réll?ti vìzz?m]
n
 belief in changeable standards: the belief that concepts such as right and wrong, goodness and badness, or truth and falsehood are not absolute but change from culture to culture and situation to situation 
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.)
 
 
 This means that a person can't be good just because he wins a few matches. A person cant be smart just because he passes a ton of tests.
 
Conditions, moods, and ways of thinking are always changing. And by there not being an absolute scale, there is no proper way of measuring what or who is good.
 
But the most accurate way of measuring skill at that point in time is by using the most recent trials.
 
Not that hard to grasp.
 
 
So, the massive use of misnomers makes a person a person and not a robot (really? I could have sworn it was breathing.) Thanx for the insight.   
*Counts to ten while breathing heavily* You know, it isn't generally considered to be socially adept to know what someone is talking about, yet still insist on making an argument out of it because it doesn't make 100% literal sense.

You know, it isn't socially adept to say stupid things and not expect a smart ass response..
 
You can stop crying now.

Quote from: frylock contradicting himself
First off, I'm not frylock. I'm definitely more of a knot, or retina scanner. 

Couldnt remember your name. Mi bad.
 
 
What the hell are you talking about in that second sentence?

Im sure that we can both agree that a player that loses 15 games in a row has just experienced 15 loses.
Purposely operating under a different use of the word in question is, like  pretending you don't know what someone's talking about, commonly considered socially inept. And I think you just invented that fifteen right there. Yep, that was 100% you, that fifteen.

  Again, what the hell are you talking about? your random incoherent responses are starting to annoy me. Purposely doing what?
 
You take one line and babble about nothing.... got to be chansey kidding me.
 
 
Again, to re-iterate, skill is nothing but a perception and it is always changing in contrast to something (or someone) else. There is no way to definitely say, "Hey, this guy's good." but one can make a definite point as to whether or not he/she is a loser or a winner.
 
Edit: I dont get your responses, do you have something against what I say? or do you have your own belief? because all you're doing now is quoting (and misquoting) me without any substance... using a ton of hypotheticals that, as stated before, are too broad or don't make any sense.
 
which is chansey irritating.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on July 24, 2010, 06:02:13 PM
Ugh.... I'm unsubscribing to this thread. This isn't even a debate relative to the origonal post anymore, this is a retarded, vague, and incoherent argument consisting entirely of sacrasm and ad homs on both our parts, which is not excused by the use of big words. Frankly, I think if we were in person, I'd have thrown something by now.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Mr Pokemon on July 24, 2010, 06:41:12 PM
You mean you haven't thrown anything?
Damn! I'm going to have to re-imagine this whole argument..
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Jerry on July 24, 2010, 07:10:57 PM
You mean you haven't thrown anything?
Damn! I'm going to have to re-imagine this whole argument..

I think me too! :D
You take the lead.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Mr Pokemon on July 24, 2010, 07:40:16 PM
Hm?
Since I don't like short posts...
I think that when you lose to a gym leader, you lose a chunk of your money (How much I don't know) and instead of automatically being taken to the Pokemon Center, you must get back there yourself. A walk of shame, sort of.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: LeoReborn on August 09, 2010, 01:53:12 PM
Hm?
Since I don't like short posts...
I think that when you lose to a gym leader, you lose a chunk of your money (How much I don't know) and instead of automatically being taken to the Pokemon Center, you must get back there yourself. A walk of shame, sort of.
I never did get that, you Black out, then Magically appear in the EXACT One you last used.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: SantaClaws on January 25, 2011, 02:44:19 AM
I never did get that, you Black out, then Magically appear in the EXACT One you last used.

How is that difficult to understand?

A. When you loose, you pass out and wake up at a hospital.. that's pretty reasonable.

2. it'd be way to easy to abuse if you'd jump to the nearest PC.

Yes, I use A and 2.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on January 25, 2011, 04:55:40 AM
lolnecromancer.
Double points because 2 didn't make any sense.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: DarK_SouL on January 25, 2011, 05:44:26 AM
None of that post made sense to me. At all. Ever.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Bing on January 25, 2011, 03:46:41 PM
i feel a waiting period would be a good thing weather it's a day or 3 hours, also the pokemon of the gym leader should be a level or two higher than the players strongest pokemon.  like if you walk in with a lvl 20 pokemon the gym leaders would range from lvl 19-21, an exception would be made if your pokemon are too low leveled, ex: you walk in to the third gym all your pokemon are lvl 15ish, the gym leaders pokemon will not be lvl 14-16 they will be set at a min level of 20 (making preparation for gyms important because with out a min you could walk in with a team of lvl 5s and win), but if you walked in and your strongest poke was lvl 22 the gym leaders would range from 21-23 even if the rest of your pokemon are lvl 10 (this would increase people to raise balanced teams and not just one pokemon)
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: ghostman50 on January 27, 2011, 09:07:23 AM
I still think that losing a pokemon or two, when losing to a gym leader, is plausible.
I know, for a fact, that i cant be the only person to think this.   ::)
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: PkMn Trainer Black on January 28, 2011, 01:48:06 AM
The loss of a pokemon could be the worst thing done to a trainer. key word: could



If someone were to lose a certain amount of times, they could lose a valued pokemon, or use a decoy to farm exp and train during the wait.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Wailord on January 28, 2011, 10:15:25 AM
Wailord dosent lose  to other pokeymans  8)

But in the case he did.. I think a wait would just put people starting the game off Pokemon and just get them bored
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: eviljezza on February 20, 2011, 11:45:44 AM
I am all for penalties as it means that I have to get better and stronger if I lose, so it gives you an incentive like your own little quest.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Frenchfry on February 20, 2011, 05:00:17 PM
Well, technically, losing a pokemon would make your team weaker.
Just saying.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: zylonnick on February 20, 2011, 06:42:55 PM
I still think that losing a pokemon or two, when losing to a gym leader, is plausible.
I know, for a fact, that i cant be the only person to think this.   ::)

I totally disagree with that. I only catch pokémon which are essential in my team, and losing them would nultify all the efford I putted in catching and raising him.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: eviljezza on February 20, 2011, 08:58:36 PM
Losing a PKM for losing a gym battle is too much.
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: Desbear on February 20, 2011, 10:40:00 PM
i agree i would be pretty mad if i spent a tone of time finding a pokemon and then finally finding it and then losing it to gym leader  thats not even gonna use it
Title: Re: losing to a gym leader
Post by: bazzleman on January 03, 2012, 04:41:16 PM
Losing your Pokemon when you lose a battle/when you lose a battle to a gym leader would be horrible especially if you just made a stupid mistake like accidentally using the wrong move and also what about your starter, you lose and they go and nick your Squirtle which is irreplaceable.