Speed/Spore Analysis

[Noah_Road]

I would like to get a second opinion about a certain strategy. This game is all about making pokemon balanced; we don't want a pokemon that can't be used competatively and we don't want a pokemon that is too OP'd. On the test server there is a lot of people running Simisage, Ledian, and Sceptile--all very fast pokemon--with Spore or Grass Wistle. Now I know the balancers do evrerything for a reason but do you think that it might be a bit unfair to give 100% accurate sleep moves to pokemon that can outspeed more than 80% of the metagame?

For Ledian and Simisage, its only a matter of putting an opponent to sleep then setting up Swords Dance while the opponent either stays in or switches. Since these pokemon don't have many reliable checks or counters after the set up thanks to their amazing speed, the Ledian and Simisage users can then sweep most if not all of a team. While there are many ways to get around the move Spore (Magic Mirror, Lum Berry--which only is a temporary fix, Vital Spirit/Insomnia, or switching to a pokemon that already has a status ailment) not every player will have access to these ways, especially when the game is realeased items/pokemon with the right abilities may be scarce.

Also when the game comes out, will all pvp battles have an automatic sleep clause? If not then this strategy can easily become extremely abused as one can but a traiener's whole team to sleep with ease. Generally, Spore is only given to mushroom Pokemon (its not as reaslistic when a monkey is able to release spores from who knows where) which happen to be slow enough to not be able to abuse it.

Normally in a competative scene, the best solution would be to tell someone to run a counter specifically for spore users or just put a Lum Berry on a pokemon. This can not be the case for a MMO. The test server has proven that most trainers will not be playing this game with a competative outlook and therefore most players will not be able to react to the faster pokemon putting them to sleep then setting up. Lum Berries or Chesto Berries also cannot be the definite answer as they require time to find and deplete after use unlike PO.

My only solution would be to take Spore away from pokemon like Ledian and Semisage or lowering their accruacy to make them more akin to Sleep Powder. This is not a thread ment to complain but is to give the balancers a different vantage point on a situation. I would like to hear what other people have to say about countering the Ledian/Semisage + Spore strategy or ways to make it a bit more player-friendly.

[Mr. Fox]

lol I have noticed the same thing, but Ledian gets Spore?

[Viper]

I think the best solutions would be to force a sleep clause on every battle. I run spore on my breloom, and while he isnt the fastest, i have been able to wipe entire teams out with just him. Thats not because im better tho, its just because the other guys are idiots. The best way to counter spore is to let one of your pokemon get slept, then switch him out and dont bring him back till the sporer is dead. Thats one thing those people didnt understand. I think once this method has been used to disable spore from being used again, the pokemon in question in this topic lose alot of their charm.

Now the question is whether spore is a cheap way to make one pokemon useless temporarily. I think it is totally fair. As a user of spore and having experience of it being used on me, it all in the end leads to strategy. Countering and using spore is no different than any other move in the game, and the difference between me and those people mentioned earlier is strategy. If people havent prepared to counter spore, its not the spore users fault for their unpreparedness.

I say dont make it easier for those that dont battle competitively like you said. We should be rewarding the people who put the time and effort into studying the game, not hurting them. If a new player falls to a spore team, let them have the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and prepare for next time.

But whatever you do dont take spore off Breloom please ^^. Lowering the accuracy on spore for those two pokemon in question does seem like a viable option, but are you able to lower it for just two pokemon and not all of them?

[Noah_Road]

I think the best solutions would be to force a sleep clause on every battle. I run spore on my breloom, and while he isnt the fastest, i have been able to wipe entire teams out with just him. Thats not because im better tho, its just because the other guys are idiots. The best way to counter spore is to let one of your pokemon get slept, then switch him out and dont bring him back till the sporer is dead. Thats one thing those people didnt understand. I think once this method has been used to disable spore from being used again, the pokemon in question in this topic lose alot of their charm.

Now the question is whether spore is a cheap way to make one pokemon useless temporarily. I think it is totally fair. As a user of spore and having experience of it being used on me, it all in the end leads to strategy. Countering and using spore is no different than any other move in the game, and the difference between me and those people mentioned earlier is strategy. If people havent prepared to counter spore, its not the spore users fault for their unpreparedness.

I say dont make it easier for those that dont battle competitively like you said. We should be rewarding the people who put the time and effort into studying the game, not hurting them. If a new player falls to a spore team, let them have the opportunity to learn from their mistakes and prepare for next time.

But whatever you do dont take spore off Breloom please ^^. Lowering the accuracy on spore for those two pokemon in question does seem like a viable option, but are you able to lower it for just two pokemon and not all of them?

You're right, spore is counterable if you are prepared for it, but after seeing the players battle for about a month, how many players do you think will go through the mmo while keeping a spore counter in mind? You're right that we should not be hurting those who take the time to make a competative team but its not the competative people (other than LP5) using this strategy but the--for lack of a better word--noobs that spam this. I personally don't agree that letting a pokemon be incapacitated to counter a spore user is a good idea at all. Since this requires a switch and the Spore user can set up to start their sweep on the free turn. After a Sword Dance from Ledian or Simisage or setting up a sub from Breloom, many cuonters and checks aren't viable to be able to take out this now +2 threat.

And I am saying lowering the accuracy for the move Spore which means this would affect every Spore user.

[Bing]

I'd like to add that the new 3-5 turns for sleep can be a bit much as well.  Combined with super fast pokemon and even battle can turn ugly real fast.  I've noticed that if you last pokemon is asleep you've pretty much lost.  I feel that 2-5 would be more effective and balanced.

On topic, I agree with Noah, it's extremely easy to abuse a sleep move that really never misses.  And some of these pokemon honestly don't need it.

[Roloc]

Keep Sleep Clause on.

Enough said really, but I'll go on.

Sleep clause really hinders sleep. When you see something switch in that runs a sleeping move just switch to a pokemon that you don't mind being slept and switch again. I do it all the time and I never have a problem with people sleeping my pokemon.
I always let it hit my masqurain because I have it built really bulky and I mainly only use it for intimidate to cripple physical sweepers. I really don't understand how any of you are having such a hard time with sleep. I use butterfree and ledian a lot and the both have sleep moves and both can be taken out very very very easily. Butterfree has been getting taken so easily that I had to give it sash to even make it worth keeping on my team.

[zylonnick]

Maybe taking spore from Ledian is a good idea (130 Base Speed and some other options to battle), Sceptile has 120 Base speed with Unburden (+Acrobatics and Flight Gem) and then giving him a free chance to pull of Swords Dance might be a little to much (though I believe Grass Wistle isn't 100% accurate).

I don't believe Simisage should be that hard to counter though, since alot of pokémon got a nice speed boost, so I say keep Spore on him, but let Ledian lose it.

Sceptile is a pokémon I don't think needs the extra turn from Grass Wistle (he can and will force stuff out on his own, believe me), but that might just be me.

Anyway, keep discussing and we'll hear what the other balancers (like Level5Pidgey) think about this matter.

[Jerry]

And incidentally, that's the exact thing I met when I went on PO today to see how things were going =/

It gets annoying when the person doesn't put up the sleep clause.

[Bing]

And incidentally, that's the exact thing I met when I went on PO today to see how things were going =/

It gets annoying when the person doesn't put up the sleep clause.

Honestly I look at the clauses now when anyone challenges me.  And yeah, I've seen a lot of people using sleep moves recently.  Mostly because with the new 3-5 rule.  The sleeping pokemon will almost never wake up. 

I still believe that sleep should be 2-5 instead of 3-5.

[Roloc]

I find all both sceptile and ledian easy to counter. But hey I run bug and rock type moves on my teams so it's easy to ohko them both. I can't say for sure with sceptile but ledian can only run 2 attacking moves with this setup and sure he does have iron fist but he doesn't have stab on any of the moves that benefit from iron fist. I personally run a flying and fighting move on mine. I'm saying all this to point out that like this he doesn't have much coverage and tends to not OHKO everything after only one SD. If it doesn't OHKO then it dies right after because it is very frail.

[Shadowfred]

Okay, so all this talk about Spore made me finally look up Ledian's pre change movepool, because we never talked about giving it to him. I just assumed, because of this, that Ledian got it somewhere in one of the old generations and the speed buff just made it usable. This is not the case however, so it must be a case of the database files being really annoying to work with. As such, Ledian will definitely be losing Spore.

[Jerry]

Okay, so all this talk about Spore made me finally look up Ledian's pre change movepool, because we never talked about giving it to him. I just assumed, because of this, that Ledian got it somewhere in one of the old generations and the speed buff just made it usable. This is not the case however, so it must be a case of the database files being really annoying to work with. As such, Ledian will definitely be losing Spore.

Some people on PU PO will be surprised to see a missing move on their Ledian next time they come in

[Level5Pidgey]

L... Ledian gets Spore? O.o

Holy...

Had I known, it would have lost it.

Related: Sleep Clause should always be on. That is going to be in the standard battle rules for PU.

Our plan of attack: Ledian and Sceptile will lose Sleep.
Quiver Dance will lose SDef boost.

Where I am: As you all probably know, I'm crazy inactive atm.
I currently have a full time job as a games programmer that I do for 10 hours  day, and it's a 3 hour travel each way. So I don't have really... any... time?
I have weekends but they're generally used for other professional things, catching up on sleep, catching up with friends, and working on my own game side-projects (which unfortunately PU isn't on the top of that list atm).
Sorry for any inconvenience. I'ma make edits/teach Fred how asap though ^_^

[deadae]

I see... Still ledian is a huge threat without spore. Now i agree that he should have never had it in the first place...Still replacing him with a flyer who is phiscal and can use sleep, is virtually impossible.... i would lose an attacker and be forced to use a third wall....Im F-ed basically....Stilll this should make things more challenging for me.Change it if u will just letting Noah and everyone else know...I'll still find a way to beat You

[Roloc]

Choice band ledian is better then spore ledian anyway.