Move System Alteration

[dazzvazz]

My Proposal to Altering Pokemon Move System

Sorry if this is a bit lengthy or verbose...

The current system only allows a Pokemon to maintain four moves at any given time. I suggest this restriction should only be limited to battle. The Pokemon can learn all of it's natural moves, but the trainer must select four moves that the Pokemon will use for battle. This four moves for battle will be referred to as the 'battle move set' for the remainder of this post, and the moves the Pokemon learns naturally will be called the 'natural move pool'. Outside of battle the trainer can switch moves between the battle move set and the natural move pool, as long as the battle moves does not exceed four moves.

Next up is TM's. As mentioned in the previous paragraph, there is a natural move pool for the natural moves the Pokemon will learn as it levels up, but, I would like to separate the natural move pool from the TM move pool. The reason being; To avoid allowing a Pokemon to have a gargantuan list of moves to freely switch to the battle move set I suggest we limit the TM move pool to a small finite number. The moves in the TM move pool can be replaced at will by the trainer by teaching a Pokemon moves from a TM. The new moves must replace an old move if the finite number is reached in the TM move pool.

Last, but not least, HM's. One thing I found annoying in the previous games is that I needed to teach a Pokemon a HM to get to various places. This led to having Pokemon on hand specifically to teach HM's to. I suggest once a trainer obtains a HM any Pokemon on hand can use the associated ability outside of battle as long as the Pokemon is eligible to use that type of move. HM's can be taught to a Pokemon which will take up a slot in the TM move pool. HM's like before have an infinite use.

This amendment will maintain the four move balance during battle like always while allowing trainers to be more flexible and make their high level Pokemon more interesting.

My reasoning is as follows...

Once a Pokemon gets to the higher levels they learn more powerful moves, which subsequently have less PP. This makes it rather tedious when trying to grind levels. Trainers generally want to keep powerful moves for when they encounter other trainers, but for grinding levels it can be a bother. Being able to switch sets will allow a trainer to use moves with more PP for grinding levels while having moves on hand for when they want to battle trainers.

When two trainers are about to battle, they generally won't know what types of Pokemon they will be up against before they enter the battle. This means that this new system won't allow players to change their Pokemon's battle move set to give them an advantage.

Although this may make Pokemon more flexible, it won't make them too flexible. The finite TM move pool assures this. The natural move pool will generally consist of moves that are somewhat similar, plus older moves become somewhat redundant once more powerful moves become available (when battling trainers anyway).

I hope you consider this proposal, and if you do not, please explain your reasoning (for my curiosities sake).

[Tickles]

NO!

The game is being made as close to the originals as possible. You will only have 4 moves at any given time. If you want a new move, just find a tutor, use a tm, or find a move deleter.

[Mr_Dark]

I like your way of thinking! But like Cortex said, we're trying to keep PU close to the original games (battle wise).

Although we are thinking of some way to deal with HMs so they won't take up a move spot. Probably a seperated slot where you can put a HM, but then it would not be possible to use this in battle, but only use it for funtionality purposes like cutting trees and surfing.


P.s. Welcome to PU

[Darkstar64]

Well, if you wanted, you could give HM's two purposes. You could make it so when you clicked on an HM, it would give you the option to teach it to a pokemon as a 'Field Move' (as in using it in the overworld), or as a battle move. Maybe you could have it to where a pokemon can learn two field moves, and four battle moves. Just pitching ideas.

[genbor]

 That was a nice and lengthy layout of ideas. In my opinion, as long as it's logical, the more the better. I can't say that I particularly dislike this idea, since I always found it funny how Pokémon can only use four moves, and always found it more logical that once a Pokémon learns a move, he should not forget it, sort of like what happens in the anime and the manga. I'm satisfied with what you suggested for TMs, and I like the HMs part too (I had an idea regarding that once: http://pokemon-universe.com/index.php/topic,2756.msg60347.html#msg60347) since I always hated how I had to carry a Pokémon armed with nothing but HMs if I wanted to get around. While the idea seems nice enough, I think there should be something that limits the frequency of the move changes from the natural move pool to the battle move pool.

 Here's my proposal: You have all the moves in the natural move pool, but just because you know something, doesn't mean you can use it. So if you want to use a new move, you will have to switch it out to the battle move pool, and then that movepool will have a "skill level". The higher the "skill level" means it works on higher level opponents. What this would mean, is that if you wish to take the trouble of switching out a new move, you will have to go back to the basics, so even though your Pokémon is a lvl 50, he will not be able to hit anything above a lvl 5 with that new move. Each try it will advance up in rank, but the higher the rank, the longer it takes for it to advance (sort of like how you need to train your weapon skills in other MMORPGs). This would, for one, limit people endlessly switching between moves.

 The second proposal, is to have a time limiter on how often you can switch moves. If you switch moves there should be a time limiter which tells you, "You have already switched a move in the past X hours," where you would have to wait to switch again if you wanted. The reason for this, is exactly what you have suggested: to have moves for grinding and moves for battling. That's something I disagree with, the game makes it so that you grind your way up, but you do it in a way that you still have enough PP to face down another Trainer if you need to. If not, you just weren't careful enough. Another thing, if you could just change between "grind set" (battle move pool for grinding) and "battle set" (battle move pool for facing tougher opponents), that would ruin the whole purpose of having less PP on more powerful moves, since you have to reserve them. If you could just switch out to a more powerful move, you would ruin the one of two purposes of it having less PP.

 

NO!

The game is being made as close to the originals as possible. You will only have 4 moves at any given time. If you want a new move, just find a tutor, use a tm, or find a move deleter.

 His idea pretty much goes along with the "find a tutor, use a tm, or find a move deleter." I would agree if he only posted a demanding "m4ke moar movepools pl0x!" for his idea, but since he took his time to actually think about it and write it out in more detail, I think it deserves more than the simple "NO!" It's just an idea that he proposed, which is interesting enough to discuss even if it doesn't get implemented.

 So I commend you for posting, great job. Hope to see you more on the forums.

 

[Pokemaster MAC]

HMs have always been a Pain in my rump. Mainly because you use some of them like once/twice and that's it. B/W didn't exactly use them all in the story, just extra side areas mostly.

Something I had thought of was something like an Egg pouch so you can keep 6 Pokes on belt at a time...seems like a good idea, but would need a lot of tweaking

[Tickles]

Yes, the idea seems good on paper, but in a competitive sense, it's more of a hassle than a convenience. I can understand the HM slave things, yes, it is annoying, but some of the HM moves are actually perfect in battle, like surf, waterfall, and rock smash.

If you were allowed to switch off moves at any moment, even with a time limit, the having a guy help you remember those moves for a price will be useless. And if we allowed to switch moves at will, and have a time limit, that means for a few hours of however long it will be, you'll either be grinding, or battling competitively. It would be an extreme hassle if someone keeps sending you a challenge, and feel a bit lonely if you set yourself to not accepting battles.

And if we did some kind of skill based switch system, that means dropping the accuracy of a move, which completely breaks the balance. Any move with 100 accuracy would become useless because you wanted to switch to it that move for whatever reason. And if moves increased based on skill, that means increasing their power over time as well. That is the direction it would ultimately lead to. Some one can spam a high BP Pursuit now that it counts as no type.

The move tutors, the move re learner, and the move deleter has been essential since Gen III, because it offers an easy way to get rid of an HM move, learn a new one, or relearn an old one you had to give up for the HM.

Here is my remedy for the HM, don't have main roads require an HM, but have side roads, or hard to get in areas be blocked where a HM move would be needed. That way, a player can do the main quest HM free if they want, or take an HM slave to go explore that path located behind the tree and see where it takes them.

I'm not too sure about the HM slot, so I won't comment on that.

@MAC:

B/W was sort of the direction I was thinking, the HM's were for side things.

Also, don't use another thread to start posting ideas, make a new one for different ideas.

[Pokemaster MAC]

Keeping on the idea of Pokemon learning moves, what about Pokemon learning moves they don't normally get, from like a move tutor? Different from a typical tutor, teaching like Flamethrower to...i dunno, like Caterpie (Example) 
(Kinda like how the Shadow Lugia gets Psycho Boost, or several other 'gift'/event Pokemon etc.)

[Roloc]

Well, if you wanted, you could give HM's two purposes. You could make it so when you clicked on an HM, it would give you the option to teach it to a pokemon as a 'Field Move' (as in using it in the overworld), or as a battle move. Maybe you could have it to where a pokemon can learn two field moves, and four battle moves. Just pitching ideas.

Pretty sure this has all been talked about before but I think Darkstar put it together nicely and that is the way it should be.
Pokemon battling is a vital part of pokemon and letting someone switch moves at will would heavily change the workings of the game. The 4 moves should be left alone and do as Darkstar suggested about the HMs. Or like said in another thread and just let the player learn the HMs. The player will learn the field moves and they will still be available to the pokemon as useful attacks.

[Declan_23]

Personally, I think as far as HMs are concerned, the moment you aquire the relevant HM, all pokemon that can learn it automatically have ability to use it out of battle. I mean, a fish won't forget how to swim, and a bird won't forget how to fly will it? Only thing is some pokemon can learn loads of HMs, so it could make them more desirable, even if they're not great in battle.

[Darkstar64]

Another idea I had (Which probably isn't as good) is you could separate the 'battle move' from the 'field move'. Make HM's only work for HM slots, and make an entirely new TM that has all the same attributes as that TM. So lets say we're talking about surf. You can teach it to your Lapras, but it only allows you to teach it as a field move, thus going in your field move slot(s). But then there's a different TM that has 95 power, 100 accuracy, 15 PP and hits all pokemon on the field (or all opponents if you're going with the version before Generation 4). The only problem is that a move you once got for free now requires you to do even more work to get it. But once way you could fix it is if you make it so that move is given to you by the gym leaders. You know, they always give you the TM for that one move they tried to spam? Just make it that TM.

[Pokemaster MAC]

Another idea I had (Which probably isn't as good) is you could separate the 'battle move' from the 'field move'. Make HM's only work for HM slots, and make an entirely new TM that has all the same attributes as that TM. So lets say we're talking about surf. You can teach it to your Lapras, but it only allows you to teach it as a field move, thus going in your field move slot(s). But then there's a different TM that has 95 power, 100 accuracy, 15 PP and hits all pokemon on the field (or all opponents if you're going with the version before Generation 4). The only problem is that a move you once got for free now requires you to do even more work to get it. But once way you could fix it is if you make it so that move is given to you by the gym leaders. You know, they always give you the TM for that one move they tried to spam? Just make it that TM.

I'd call this idea something like a CM, which stands for Copy Machine, which can be used as a TM/HM copy. Could be like a usable item to teach HM/TM field moves and either buyable at Pokemarts or winnable from some events or something. Just working off Darkstar's idea

[Jerry]

Here is my remedy for the HM, don't have main roads require an HM, but have side roads, or hard to get in areas be blocked where a HM move would be needed. That way, a player can do the main quest HM free if they want, or take an HM slave to go explore that path located behind the tree and see where it takes them.

I wouldn't be too sure about this one... since what I understood about PU is that one player can go everywhere and hence would be able to challenge any gym in any order. The only thing that might be preventing them to do certain things (such as reach areas where rare pokemon can be caught?) would be the difference in level itself. Like, if you just started and ran onto a path bustling with Lv.50 pokemon, you surely wouldn't be able to get through, but you will once you are strong enough.

One of the arguments for this was because one player could cut a tree or smash or move a rock and you will find a 'little' queue of trainers following right behind who don't yet have the HM or can use them.

And specially Fly which has been discussed a lot in the past. Though I can't remember if there was a final decision as to what to do with it.



Otherwise, nice ideas which I'm sure could be worked on to make it better

I'm for the idea of having to work harder to switch in moves, while still making them possible. Maybe using some background counter on each move do that?

Example of what I mean:
Starter with Scratch and Growl (That gotta be Charmander I think).
Using Scratch 10 times while it's in his movepool will make it more reliable of a move and uses it a lot of times and accumulates 120 counters (quite reliable).
Now the Charmander learns Flamethrower and its current movepool is Scratch, Growl, Ember, Smokescreen. Say it forgets Scratch for Flamethrower. Flamethrower will have now 0 counter, and Scratch will have its counter reset (or drops by some number whether dependent on some other factors or not, let's not get too much in depth unless you really mean to) while still in its natural pool. So in the end, switching too much would not be recommended.

I would really prefer this instead of the time-dependent system that genbor suggested, since I really consider time as being something that can be abused. (even if using game played time instead of IRL time, like leaving the game open on your PC/laptop]

And, that:

Keeping on the idea of Pokemon learning moves, what about Pokemon learning moves they don't normally get, from like a move tutor? Different from a typical tutor, teaching like Flamethrower to...i dunno, like Caterpie (Example) 
(Kinda like how the Shadow Lugia gets Psycho Boost, or several other 'gift'/event Pokemon etc.)

I don't think that this would be beneficial... the balance team is already working on the movepools of pokemon and including this option might scramble the whole thing.

I'm sure if something close to event pokemon with special moves has to be implemented, they would just be event pokemon, like in the IRL events, but here it will be on the server. Maybe something like Easter with some Torchics being handed out at a certain town to trainers for a whole IRL day with the move Eggbomb. And that's just an example as well.

[Pokemaster MAC]

Here is my remedy for the HM, don't have main roads require an HM, but have side roads, or hard to get in areas be blocked where a HM move would be needed. That way, a player can do the main quest HM free if they want, or take an HM slave to go explore that path located behind the tree and see where it takes them.

I wouldn't be too sure about this one... since what I understood about PU is that one player can go everywhere and hence would be able to challenge any gym in any order. The only thing that might be preventing them to do certain things (such as reach areas where rare pokemon can be caught?) would be the difference in level itself. Like, if you just started and ran onto a path bustling with Lv.50 pokemon, you surely wouldn't be able to get through, but you will once you are strong enough.

One of the arguments for this was because one player could cut a tree or smash or move a rock and you will find a 'little' queue of trainers following right behind who don't yet have the HM or can use them.

And specially Fly which has been discussed a lot in the past. Though I can't remember if there was a final decision as to what to do with it.



Otherwise, nice ideas which I'm sure could be worked on to make it better

I'm for the idea of having to work harder to switch in moves, while still making them possible. Maybe using some background counter on each move do that?

Example of what I mean:
Starter with Scratch and Growl (That gotta be Charmander I think).
Using Scratch 10 times while it's in his movepool will make it more reliable of a move and uses it a lot of times and accumulates 120 counters (quite reliable).
Now the Charmander learns Flamethrower and its current movepool is Scratch, Growl, Ember, Smokescreen. Say it forgets Scratch for Flamethrower. Flamethrower will have now 0 counter, and Scratch will have its counter reset (or drops by some number whether dependent on some other factors or not, let's not get too much in depth unless you really mean to) while still in its natural pool. So in the end, switching too much would not be recommended.

I would really prefer this instead of the time-dependent system that genbor suggested, since I really consider time as being something that can be abused. (even if using game played time instead of IRL time, like leaving the game open on your PC/laptop]

And, that:

Keeping on the idea of Pokemon learning moves, what about Pokemon learning moves they don't normally get, from like a move tutor? Different from a typical tutor, teaching like Flamethrower to...i dunno, like Caterpie (Example) 
(Kinda like how the Shadow Lugia gets Psycho Boost, or several other 'gift'/event Pokemon etc.)

I don't think that this would be beneficial... the balance team is already working on the movepools of pokemon and including this option might scramble the whole thing.

I'm sure if something close to event pokemon with special moves has to be implemented, they would just be event pokemon, like in the IRL events, but here it will be on the server. Maybe something like Easter with some Torchics being handed out at a certain town to trainers for a whole IRL day with the move Eggbomb. And that's just an example as well.

Yeah that's kinda what i was meaning, how the event Pokes have special moves, if there were plans to make PU event Pokes like that Torchic example

[genbor]

I'm for the idea of having to work harder to switch in moves, while still making them possible. Maybe using some background counter on each move do that?

Example of what I mean:

Starter with Scratch and Growl (That gotta be Charmander I think).

Using Scratch 10 times while it's in his movepool will make it more reliable of a move and uses it a lot of times and accumulates 120 counters (quite reliable).
Now the Charmander learns Flamethrower and its current movepool is Scratch, Growl, Ember, Smokescreen. Say it forgets Scratch for Flamethrower. Flamethrower will have now 0 counter, and Scratch will have its counter reset (or drops by some number whether dependent on some other factors or not, let's not get too much in depth unless you really mean to) while still in its natural pool. So in the end, switching too much would not be recommended.

I would really prefer this instead of the time-dependent system that genbor suggested, since I really consider time as being something that can be abused. (even if using game played time instead of IRL time, like leaving the game open on your PC/laptop]

 I'm pretty sure I suggested the having to work harder one too, but yes I agree with you, time can be abused. It was just some idea I put out there, wasn't really a final solution. And I don't think the "skill system" on a move would make the previous accuracy system useless, it would just expend on it. If you have maxed the counter for Scratch, it will have the same accuracy rate as before the "skill system". All that would change is that you would not be able to reap with a stronger new move right away, which makes sense for me. If you throw away your lance which you were using for a long time and know how to, and pick up a sword, you still won't be a swordsman right away.

 I don't think the move being switched out should reset it's counter completely. In the Games, you would just forget the move and be done with it most of the time, so resetting it might work out most of the time (since people won't try to revisit those moves too often), but let's say you have 3 of the 4 moves you wish decided, but can't make a choice for a 4th move, since there are a few others that appeal to you. You decide to test them out, and testing something and making a comparison for me is usually I take up something, try it out, go to another, try it out, then go back again and keep comparing until I can clearly see which one I like better. So if that were to happen to someone, they would have to go through acquiring the counter all over again on each try.

 And another thing, just because you don't drive for a year or two, you still don't forget, it's just a bit rusty. So maybe have a penalty of 15% of your overall counter be forgotten when you switch out a move. I didn't go to any higher numbers because I think 15% is in between about right and almost wrong. Anything below 15% would make it too easy, anything above would make it such a pain people migh just ignore it. Of course if you have a better idea on that, please explain.