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Author Topic: PvP Arena Match-Up system - Broken Down  (Read 3286 times)

Offline Vaderico

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PvP Arena Match-Up system - Broken Down
« on: March 20, 2012, 03:49:18 pm »


This thread was originally a reply to genbor's post on my other thread: http://pokemon-universe.com/index.php/topic,4278.15.html However, it became so long that i decided to create a new one.

The following is based on the thought process of 'How will Arena PvP work in Pokemon Universe?'
When a Player decides to enter the Arena, and then gets paired up with another player, what Exactly governs who he gets paired up. Under what system does the coding in the game follow so you get set up with the right person, first time, every time.
This is my conclusion:


There are a few ways in which the PvP Arena system could categorize and match up other players.
I will list them:

1)
A very Halo 3 system could be used to group players. Every player is given a PvP in-game Rank from 1-50 (for example) and if a player has never battled before, then they will be given the rank: 1. So that player will be paired up with another player with the rank of 1. whoever wins the battle will go up a rank, and whoever loses will not go up. Eventually peoples ranks with rise and drop until they reach a rank that fits their skillset/pokemon levels accordingly. However, the higher the rank you are, the more battles won in a row it will take until you level up, and the less losses in a row it will take for you to level down.
For example: Geotrainer is at arena level 35, he wins 3 games in a row and progressed to level 36, but then loses 2 games in a row and goes back down to 35.

2)
The system would match you up against someone of your similar Pokemon level. So lets say someone tries to cheat the system by leaving their PvP level at one and training/Buying 6 Pokemon at level 100. If they enter the PvP arena they would be paired up with another player who also has 6 level 100 pokemon (or Pokemon with very similar levels)

3)
If there are Pokemon trainer levels in-game which are governed by how many Pokemon you have caught, how many battles against the wild you have fought, how many Pokemon of yours have evolved, how many gym badges you have won, and how many Pokemon levels you have gained via training. This level would govern who you are matched up against, and the system would match you up against other players of your level.

4)
The system would sort players using win/loss statistics. So a if a player has won 0 and loss 0 (never PvP'd), hey would be paired up with someone with the same/similar statistics. If a player has won 40 and lost 20 the system will pair that player up with another similar player to the best of its abilities.



However, all 4 of these Arena categorizing systems have flaws which I will list.

1)
A player has never PvP'd in their life decides to enter. However, this player has been playing the game for enough time to catch every Pokemon out there, aswell as get a good number of them to level 100 (this would be very common for people who just like roaming, and are not very PvP orientated). So this player enters PvP for the first time and since he has never had a match, he would be up against other players with level 5 pidgeys.
And the same thing goes in reverse. If a player has reached a rank of 35 through hard work, but decides to test out battling with a team of Pokemon that are much lower level (wanting to learn how they play to further increase their skills), this player being level 35 would be matched with Pokemon of a much higher level, thus getting his ass whooped and dropping a couple levels in rank. Obviously most PvPers wouldn't want to ever risk losing their precious rank so they would only ever battle using their highest leveled pokemon (which would a very repetitive experience for that player, eventually, potentially making them quit over it)

2)
This is system is the best so far, forcing people to fight with Pokemon of their level, but it completely obliterates any idea of pair players up depending on their skill and knowledge. Instead it blindly matches up trainers Pokemon together regardless of the skill in using them. So in the end, if a player who has never PvP'd before enters the arena with his team of 100 Pokemon which he has gained via playing solo and grinding. He will get completely slaughtered by all the other level 100 teams who have trainers who have been PvPing for years, thus not ever learning a thing or two and potentially deterring them from playing the game because of it.

3)
This obviously wouldn't work, because if a player has reached trainer has reached level 20 (for example) from only ever leveling up 6 Pokemon, and another trainer has reached level 20 but has done it by playing with many many Pokemon and leveling them up. Player 1 would have a team of 6 at much higher levels across the board then Player 2 does. Therefore making this way of matching up players unfeasible.

4)
This wouldn't work for a couple of reasons. If a player has a win/loss ration of 40 wins/10 loses, but decides he wants to try and see how his lower leveled Pokemon play, he would be put up against someone with the same win/loss ratio and probably against much higher leveled Pokemon, not allowing for him to learn a single thing with his lower leveled Pokemon, giving him a +1 to loses, and making him really pissed off (possibly make the occasional player quit the game). Also if a player has never PvP'd and has a team of 100's he would be winning a lot of matches against other 0 wins/0 lose players, Pissing them off. So out of all the possibilities, i would say this is the least likely should happen.


Option (1) is the best way of getting players to battle against other players of their own skill level, but doesn't cater for higher ranked players wanting to test their lower leveled Pokemon in the arena out of fear of losing rank.
Option (2) is the best way of making sure players who want to play with a team of level 100's get paired up with an opponent, but is lacking when it comes to who you are up against skill leveld wise ("If you a have level 100 Pokemon team, I'm sorry mate, the systems the system and you are going up against other trainers who are PvP kings and are destined for failure")

So the obvious thing to do is to combine the two. For example; if a player has reached level 35 in the Arena ranks with a team of Pokemon averaging level 55, but then decides to give a team of 10-20's a crack because he wants to test their skills. Then that player will be teamed up with another player who has a team of Pokemon with level 10-20's, BUT (big but), that player who he is teamed up with will have to be of a similar rank to himself. So in the end what is happening if player A is level 35 and battles with 6x level 15 pokemon, then he will be paired up with Player B who is level 30-40 who has a team of Pokemon of levels 10-20.
This system eliminates many problems previously encountered.

Now I know some of you are reading this and are saying to yourselves 'But Vaderico, i can already see a flaw in this system regarding wait time'.
Well I say to you that wait time will not be an issue unless the Player is trying to enter the arena using an unreasonable team.

Unreasonable player (1)
A player is Arena level 1 and is trying to enter with a team of Pokemon leveled 100. The system has to pair the player up with Another player leveled 1-5 with a team of Pokemon leveled 90-100. Seeing as this would be one of the less likely events, Player 1 will be waiting a very long time for an opponent.

Unreasonable player (2)
Exactly the same as (1), but in reverse. A Player with and Arena level of 50 is trying to enter with level 5 Pokemon. This player would be sitting there pending until someone with the same setup comes along.

The way to avoid this is simple. when entering the arena, there will be a list telling you which Pokemon levels are suited to each Arena rank.
It would be set out like this:

Level:                                 Recommended Pokemon Levels

Levels 1-10                          1-20
Levels 11-20                        21-40
Levels 21-30                        41-60
Levels 31-40                        61-80
Levels 41-50                        81-100

The recommended Levels are just an example and would have to be adjusted.

So this is my suggestion. Please don't skimp out on the creation of Arena match up system. There are pro's and cons of many arena match-up systems, and if you find a con in my end result please post a comment, I love to discuss things. :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 06:09:22 pm by Vaderico »

Offline Torsacmage

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Re: PvP Arena Match-Up system - Broken Down
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2012, 04:00:31 am »
Wow another huge thread, I'm impressed.
That's a really good idea, combining rank with poke level to sort people, but won't that mean people would be waiting FOREVER if they have a team of say: a level 10 and a level 90.
There's a problem that I didn't see covered. Would you also be looking for a player using a 90 and a 10 with the same Arena rank as yourself? If so the system wouldn't ever be able to find you a partner...

Offline Darkstar64

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Re: PvP Arena Match-Up system - Broken Down
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2012, 06:41:43 am »
All very good ideas.

In a way, you'd have to be more leniant about which skill levels can be grouped together, because It'd be difficult to get multiple experienced people who are all trying out different teams, as well as newbies with strong teams. So maybe the system would look for players who were of your pokemon's levels, and would make a list of possible opponents, the ones who matched your rank and levels the most at the top of the list, and would be the computer's first attempt at a match.

Offline Vaderico

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Re: PvP Arena Match-Up system - Broken Down
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2012, 08:49:35 am »
That's a really good idea, combining rank with poke level to sort people, but won't that mean people would be waiting FOREVER if they have a team of say: a level 10 and a level 90.
There's a problem that I didn't see covered. Would you also be looking for a player using a 90 and a 10 with the same Arena rank as yourself? If so the system wouldn't ever be able to find you a partner...
A discussion between Mr_Dark and a few others occurred on this matter and it was decided upon that this problem would be solved in the following way:

*Player (1), who tries to enter the Arena with a Pokemon Party with levels of; 5, 16, 20, 48, 63, and 87 would be rejected by the system.
  Player (1) would be rejected by the system because his/her highest and lowest are Not within 10 levels of each other: 5 - 87.

*Player (2) who enters the Arena with a Pokemon Party with levels of; 36, 39, 41, 41, 44, and 46 would be accepted by the system.
  Player (2) would be accepted by the system because his/her highest and lowest Are within 10 levels of each other: 36 - 46.

So if you want to fight in the Arena you need to make sure your Pokémon are all close to the same level.

In a way, you'd have to be more leniant about which skill levels can be grouped together, because It'd be difficult to get multiple experienced people who are all trying out different teams, as well as newbies with strong teams. So maybe the system would look for players who were of your pokemon's levels, and would make a list of possible opponents, the ones who matched your rank and levels the most at the top of the list, and would be the computer's first attempt at a match.

Yes this Problem I didn't go into much detail because the Halo 3 system already fixes this issue. I'll do my best to illustrate what i mean.

*Player 1 (James) is Arena Rank 35. Recently he has been battling with Pokémon leveled 65-75, which is also the average level of Pokémon that the Average rank 30-40  uses. Meaning that most Players out there that are Arena Ranked around 30-40, use Pokémon teams at levels 65-75.
However, James has decided to try using his team leveled 20-30
This presents a problem:
If James is Arena Rank 35 and is trying to enter the Arena with a team of Pokemon leveled 20-30, most of the other Arena Ranked 30-40 trainers are all using 65-75 leveled Pokemon, and the system will not pair him up against those players. So James will be sitting there, waiting for another player Ranked 30-40 who is Also using a team of Pokémon leveled 20-30.
As you can see this is a problem because James could be waiting for a very long time.

*Player 2 (Casey) is Arena Rank 20. Recently she has been battling with Pokémon leveled 20-30, which is also the average level of Pokémon that the Average rank 15-25  uses.
Today Casey Is Not using different leveled Pokemon, and is entering the Arena with Pokémon leveled 20-30 like she usually does.
However, for some reason today there aren't any players out there who are Arena Ranked 15-20 searching for battles. So Casey is stuck there waiting for someone who is ranked similar to herself to come online and look for a battle.

This is how the system will fix this problem:
We will start off from the perspective of Player 1 (James).
When James enters the Matchmaking Arena, The system will follow these steps:

Player:                          James
Pokémon Party Level:     20-30
Arena Rank:                  35
...
Step (1). Looking for players with a party level of 20-30...
...
Step (2). Found 20 players with a party level of 20-30, searching if any of these players have a Rank of 30-40...
...
Found none, Repeat step (1) and (2) three times...
...
Step (3). Expanding search for Ranked players 30-40 by adding 5
...
Step (4). Found 20 players with a party level of 20-30, searching if any of these players have a Rank of 25-45...
...
Take a note from what happened in steps (3) and (4). The system was initially looking for players ranked 30-40, but it couldn't find any. So it expanding by 5 each way, and is now looking for players with a Rank of 25-45.

...
Step (5). Could not find any matches. Expanding search for Ranked players 25-45 by adding 5...
...
Step (6). Found 20 players with a party level of 20-30, searching if any of these players have a Rank of 20-50...

Now we will take a break at how James' system search is going, and will take a look at Player 2 (Casey).

Casey enters the Arena search system and goes through steps (1) and (2), exactly the same as how James' search did. However, as I mentioned earlier, today there aren't any players out there who are Arena Ranked 15-25 searching for battles.
So Casey's search starts expanding by 5 Exactly the same way as James' system search did.

So when James' search reaches step (6), It will see that Casey also has a Pokémon Party leveled 20-30. So since James' search has expanded far enough to cater for Casey's Rank (20), it will deem that as a successful match and Finally pair the two players together for a battle.


Now there is a problem that needs to be addressed if this situation does occur.
Problem: 'Wouldn't that mean that if a high ranked player constantly uses lower leveled Pokémon so he can vs lower Ranked players, he could abuse the system and gain ranks faster because he would have the advantage of being the better player?'

Naturally James would have the advantage over Casey in this situation because he has the higher rank, thus having more PvP experience.
However, if James wanted to progress from Arena rank 35-36, it would take a very long time for him using low leveled Pokémon and battling lower Ranked players.

For example: If James is Arena Rank 35, and wins 3 games in a row against another Rank 35. Then he would progress to level 36.
But if he was battling Casey, and trying to gain arena rank off of her, then he would need to win Alot more games, 9 for example.
Also, usually if James would lose 2 games in a row against another Rank 35, then he would go down to Rank 34.
But if he loses against Casey who is a much lower Rank then he is, he would go down a Rank after only 1 loss.

The exact same thing applies to Casey, but in reverse. If she wins against James she would Rank up a lot faster then she would if she had battled another player of her Rank (20).
And if she loses against James, she would have to lose 9 times in a row, to go down a rank.


This is the system that i have thought about for a very long time. If you find any faults please comment.


Please leave any feedback that you can.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 09:10:41 am by Vaderico »

Offline genbor

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Re: PvP Arena Match-Up system - Broken Down
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2012, 10:53:39 am »
 Very good explanation Vaderico and I like the system, but there is something I need you to verify for me.

For example: If James is Arena Rank 35, and wins 3 games in a row against another Rank 35. Then he would progress to level 36.
Also, usually if James would lose 2 games in a row against another Rank 35, then he would go down to Rank 34.

 This system would only allow you to advance/retreat in Ranking if you win 3 times in a row or lose 2 times in a row?
So if we takes James' battles in 4 matches in a row which are: 2 Wins and 1 Loss after which another 1 Win. So even though he would have the 3 wins necessary to progress forward he would still be a rank 35 since those wins weren't in a row? (Same goes vice versa)
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Offline CelaGhost

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Re: PvP Arena Match-Up system - Broken Down
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 11:11:35 am »
instead of ranking based on wins in a row and loses in row, you could rank based on wins-loses and have the rankings reset every week or so. resets would cause a players ranking to lower to the next 10 or 5 multiple ranking, unless you're the highest rankings, in which you keep your rank obviously.
cause wins in a row means you need to have the best team(which there really isn't one that is best) or really good luck with picking your team

Offline Vaderico

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Re: PvP Arena Match-Up system - Broken Down
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 11:18:12 am »
This system would only allow you to advance/retreat in Ranking if you win 3 times in a row or lose 2 times in a row?
So if we takes James' battles in 4 matches in a row which are: 2 Wins and 1 Loss after which another 1 Win. So even though he would have the 3 wins necessary to progress forward he would still be a rank 35 since those wins weren't in a row? (Same goes vice versa)

Ah genbor sorry it may not have been that clear.

If James battles 4 times in a row while being at level 35 in the order of: win - win -loss -win, the system would work as follows:

A win     - Two more wins until he Ranks up
A win     - One more win until he Ranks up
A loss     - One more loss until he Ranks Down (which also canceled out the other two wins)
A win     - Two more wins until he Ranks up

End result: James does not end up getting enough wins Or losses to enable him to Rank Up or Down, so he stays at Rank 35 where he started. So yes, your presumptions we're correct.

However, if this system is tested properly and a verdict has been decided that's its too hard to level up when every loss completely cancels out your win streak it could work in such a way that having a loss would subtract one win.
For Example:

A win     - Two more wins until he Ranks up
A win     - One more win until he Ranks up
A loss     - One more loss until he Ranks Down (which also subtracts 1 point from his win streak)
A win     - One more wins until he Ranks up

So you see that instead of having to start again from scratch, his two wins from earlier don't count to nothing, and he gets to keep one of them.
However, the mathematics behind how people rank up and down can only be perfected by testing out the game.
So the number of wins/losses required to rank up or down could be what we least expect once the system has been polished.

instead of ranking based on wins in a row and loses in row, you could rank based on wins-loses and have the rankings reset every week or so. resets would cause a players ranking to lower to the next 10 or 5 multiple ranking, unless you're the highest rankings, in which you keep your rank obviously.
cause wins in a row means you need to have the best team(which there really isn't one that is best) or really good luck with picking your team

Well there are problems with this strategy. A game company should Never penalize people for not being logged on, It's a deterrent from playing in itself because people may not want to return to a game after having a break due to 'missing the party'. Nobody want's to feel like they have missed the party, and i have known of many people who have stopped playing MMORPG's because they were on a break for too long, and they have missed so much.

So to answer the theory of having levels reset every week i don't think will be good for the community. What happens to all those learning PvPers out there who don't find it so easy to Rank up due to constantly winning and losing? So whenever the weekly roll back comes along, they will find themselves back where they started. This is extremely negative and will surely stop those pvp learners to stop pvping, and could be an eventual cause for people to quit the game. Not a good idea from my perspective.

And as for only getting to a high rank due to luck. This is not true in any way shape or form. In the beginning, yes players will be throwing teams together and sometimes winning from luck due to all the low level pvpers not knowing what exactly they are doing. but the more someone battles and learns what Pokemon beat what, and learn how to set up their 6 Pokémon, the PvP scene will be all about who has the most knowledge and skill to set up the best team.

Luck will not be apart of winning Or losing for End Game pvpers, It will be about knowledge and strategy
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 11:59:00 am by Vaderico »